Army Special Forces

[stonewall]

"Capt. John Vargas, an F-16 pilot assigned to the 555th Fighter Squadron at Aviano AB, Italy, is the 2006 winner of the Col. James Jabara Award for excellence in airmanship displayed in Operations Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom, and Joint Forge. Vargas provided close air support and employed ordnance on high-value targets during forty-five missions totaling more than 200 hours in Iraq and Afghanistan. During one sortie, he flew at high speed and low altitude expending flares directly over suspected enemy locations to allow a convoy of allied forces to move to safety. Vargas was also involved in developing F-16 mission tactics, techniques, and procedures, including urban close air support, convoy support, and integration with Special Forces. The award is presented annually by the US Air Force."

MAGNNUM!!
Vargas is super hot sh*t. But sadly, he is the exception. To the detriment of the grunts, the risk reduction AF culture doesn't typically promote this type of war fighting mentality and action.

Vargas' tactics reinforce the value of low flying aircraft. A low flying a/c has real impact on the bad guys, not the F-16 at 20,000 ft. But the AF would rather rely on stand-off weapons and keep the a/c away from the battlefield. Most F-16 drivers might as well be UAV operators.

Note: The USAFA will never select an A-10 guy for the Jabara Award, no matter what they do. It would be bad PR.

Thanks for acknowledging that he did a good job. However, Vargas is not the exception. I was the IP on about 5 of Vargas' 2 ship flt lead upgrade rides several years ago. He was a strong pilot then, and aggressive (he played OLB for 4 years at USAFA), and very humble. Just a great guy all around and still a very good friend.

The F-16 community is littered with dudes like him. I don't know how many F-16 pilots you actually know or have actually worked with in combat, but your view of us is simply incorrect, both in the Guard and Active Duty. There are hundreds if not thousands of dudes that would've done what Vargas did if in the same situation. We train at low angle strafe and high angle strafe (day and NVG) extensively and are more than willing to go low when the situation calls for it. The F-18 and F-15E guys are the same way. I have a ton of respect for the A-10 and it's pilots, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Also, I remember one time when you said there were no A-10 pilots that made General in the AF. I gave you around 4 links proving otherwise. Deja vu:

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=4920 won the Jabara as an A-10 pilot. I'm sure there's been others.

More recently, a classmate of mine from USAFA won a ton of awards and accolades for his monster efforts as a Hog driver over the past few years.

 

[stonewall]

Scrapdog. Sadly, but true; as a guy who has both flown fighter aircraft and served on the ground in combat, I'll tell ya', most combat Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and AIRMAN who I've talked to would ask for A-10s, AC-130 or Hornets over any other type of A/C for CAS. And I'm not talking CAS as in dropping 2K#'ers on one bad guy, I'm talking danger-close CAS. USAF pointy-nosed guys haven't got a good rep for good CAS....to include my own opinion. Remember, you're the one who PROVIDES the support, so the opinion should matter to you much.

Don't have a good rep for good CAS? Coming from a Hornet pilot, I won't put much stock in that statement. That's sorta like a klan member saying Jesse Jackson is an idiot.

 

[usmc33]

It never ceases to amaze me the ignorance that abounds about CAS. The first thing everyone needs to do is to stop being so parochial. There are alot of platforms that can do CAS and each one is suited to different situations. Guys like Griffin are thinking of a solely OEF or late OIF mentality. Others, like Scrap and Magnum!!, are fighting the next war and thinking a little bit bigger picture. A Gunpig is great for CAS, no doubt about it. But only when there's no ground to air threat. Throw a couple of SA-6's, 8's, or Rolands in there and the AC-130 is rendered relatively ineffective. Same goes for daylight hours, though there are certain situations an AC-130 can be effective in daylight or medium illumination nights. Same goes for an A-10. Throw in some SU-27's or MiG-29's and how effective will an A-10 be in providing a TST type CAS to troops in contact w/o CAP? Not very. Survivability goes way down. Now, I know that the anti-AF fighter pilot crowd out there likes to say that A-10 pilots or AC-130 crews will risk it all to get there but Viper/F-22 guys won't, but that's just inflammatory crap that doesn't contribute a whole lot to the convo. Every AF pilot I've ever met (Attack, Fighter, Bomber) will bust their butt to do everything they can do when they get TIC. Who can fight their way in, do the job, and fight thier way out? F-16, F-15E, F-22, F-18. And, quite frankly, I've NEVER heard of a CCT dude turning down CAS because they didn't like the platform that was available. If you can talk to the guy on the ground, and you can hit some coordinates, then they'll be happy to have you. Beggars can't be choosers.

This is why A-designated planes should do CAS and F-designated planes should provide top cover. That's what they were designed for. I know it's like when you first learned Santa Clause doesn't exist, but facts are hard for some.

I'm semi-unique in the fact that I've been a fighter pilot and ground combat leader, but I speak from my experience and that's it. Theory about what can be done, how it could be done, what's possible is fine, no problem; that's how we improve. If you re-read my posts you'll recognize that I'm only talking about me and those I've served with (SF, Ranger, SEAL, TAC-P, Combat WX, Force Recon). I'm not saying F-16 or any other type AC can't do CAS, I've stated, if given a choice, some AC will be on the top of the OML over others due to trust, percieved or real, and that's the reality of it.

Remember...the guy on the ground is not a beggar, they're the ones winning the war. Wars are won with boots on the ground.

 

[usmc33]

Don't have a good rep for good CAS? Coming from a Hornet pilot, I won't put much stock in that statement. That's sorta like a klan member saying Jesse Jackson is an idiot.

My opinion is not F/A-18 -vs- F-16 sissy fighting, it's about a grunt on the ground, discussing having F-16's not on the top of the wish list for support. I'm sure F-16 pilots are good dog-fighters and good CAS supporters, but some CAS comes better from other A/C.

I wonder if the mods will let me block your posts somehow. You cannot read and comprehend.

 

[stonewall]

My opinion is not F/A-18 -vs- F-16 sissy fighting, it's about a grunt on the ground, discussing having F-16's not on the top of the wish list for support. I'm sure F-16 pilots are good dog-fighters and good CAS supporters, but some CAS comes better from other A/C.

I wonder if the mods will let me block your posts somehow. You cannot read and comprehend.

I find it disconcerting that an F/A-18 pilot and ground pounder has such a limited understanding of the total CAS picture and how all the platforms perform that particular mission. You should have a better clue about the capabilities available to you when you're on the ground. But, if you don't know or care to know, I can't really help you there. I'll continue to do my job, just as you do yours.

You can put me on your ignore list.

 

[usmc33]

I find it disconcerting that an F/A-18 pilot and ground pounder has such a limited understanding of the total CAS picture and how all the platforms perform that particular mission. You should have a better clue about the capabilities available to you when you're on the ground. But, if you don't know or care to know, I can't really help you there. I'll continue to do my job, just as you do yours.

You can put me on your ignore list.

Well, I find it disconcerting that a provider of support doesn't care to hear the opinion of one they support. As you grow up in rank, maybe you'll do better.

Done, you're on the ignore list, I wasn't asking your permission young fighter pilot.

 

[stonewall]

Grow in rank? For you to say that implies you've been around a while. Senior leader, maybe? Damn, I find that even MORE troublesome that you don't know the capabilities of USAF CAS platforms. Perhaps you ignored the whole push toward Joint Ops.

I wasn't granting you permission, old man. I was informing you how to block my post...guess technology has passed you by in more than one arena.

 

[JungleJett]

Remember...the guy on the ground is not a beggar, they're the ones winning the war. Wars are won with boots on the ground.

Wow.....that's an interesting statement.

 

[Deuce130]

Remember...the guy on the ground is not a beggar, they're the ones winning the war. Wars are won with boots on the ground.

The beggar comment was a figure of speech - lighten up. I've been around enough operators to have respect for them and I certainly wasn't insulting them. My point is that the guy on the ground usually gets what's available to him at the time he needs it, not always what he wants. That's why the good ones know how to utilize CAS from all the platforms, not just the ones with the A prefix. I think you're too busy beating your own chest that you're not really comprehending the posts either. You're reading what you want to read based on your preconceived notions.

 

[usmc33]

The beggar comment was a figure of speech - lighten up.

Accepted.

 

[usmc33]

I've been around enough operators to have respect for them and I certainly wasn't insulting them. My point is that the guy on the ground usually gets what's available to him at the time he needs it, not always what he wants. That's why the good ones know how to utilize CAS from all the platforms, not just the ones with the A prefix. I think you're too busy beating your own chest that you're not really comprehending the posts either. You're reading what you want to read based on your preconceived notions.

Naw, re-read my posts; no chest-beating from me, never said anything regarding being a better CAS pilot, operator etc...., nothing like it, just dialogue. Yes, I can also utilize CAS from all platforms, no problem.

 

[dingo222]

I don't know who said "danger Close" wasn't time sensitive. I've called for "danger close" 3 times in my life, and you'd better believe, if anyone is calling it that close, it's time critical. I don't care if you are dropping flares, GBU's, 30MM, 105's from a tube, or confetti. The bottom line is my next line of defense as a ground pounder is to E&E or fix bayonets. lol.

THat being said, I have no idea the real diff between the diff platforms. I've worked with them back in conus, and seen the diff between an AC-130, A-10, 16's, apaches etc. It's seems to me out there on the line I get whatever is avail. No ground troop is going to get whatever he asks for unless its specifically put in the op-plan and set aside for our use.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, just adding a diff perspective. On another note, I got some damn good video of some A-10's working over some dug in positions at the escarpment just south of Karbala during the ground war. I don't know who they were, but they bailed us out big time. I just backed off and shot some vid while they did their thing. Ground troops never forget help, no matter wherever it comes from.

 

[JungleJett]

Post the video!

 

[dingo222]

I'm looking at the video today to make sure it doesn't show any tail markings or tactics that may compromise a-10 drivers in the future. I may have it up on you tube in the near future!

 

[Gorilla]

I'm looking at the video today to make sure it doesn't show any tail markings or tactics that may compromise a-10 drivers in the future. I may have it up on you tube in the near future!

I'd love to see it too. If you get it up, please post here and let us know. Thanks!

Back OT a bit, it seems that the CAS of choice by our ground troops is that which is effective AND highly visible. The problem with being highly visible is that it also usually means you're highly vulnerable. Our enemies of the last 15 years have been low tech. Remember the lessons learned by the Soviets when the Stinger arrived in Afghanistan in some quantity, and that was a simple MANPAD with limited capabilities. Add modern medium-ranged mobile SAM batteries to the mix, and the slow/visible CAS would attrit to uselessness.

All air branches of the U.S. need to prepare and maintain forces capable of all CAS varieties, from spotter/FAC types all the way up to stand-off/stealth platforms. Our next enemies may have higher quality air defenses making the A-10, helos, and especially the AC-130's simply unable to operate.

I am a fan of A-10's, and also a fan of fast moving CAS platforms like F-15, F-16, F-18's. There is no doubt in my mind that the war will come when the ONLY CAS available will be the latter group.

 

[Jafar]

I have a question regarding CAS (Well more accurately, about attacking vehicles.) How does a platform like the F-35 deal with movers? As a former tank guy my first course of action upon encountering a fixed wing air threat was to get moving and fast. Now there are vehicles in motion on the battlefield whether they are aware of an air threat or not. Obviously Maverick works, as does LGB, but what does an aircraft that is only hauling around GPS guided munitions do when it has to attack armor that is moving around at a 20+ miles per hour and changing directions? Is CBU97/105 the way of the future in regards to taking out vehicles on the move?

 

[5niner0]

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