Are CFI Signatures Required for Logging Dual Time?

[jtidmore]

I have been using Logbook Pro as a backup to my paper logbook for about 2 years now. I really like Logbook Pro and have decided to purchase a MGOent binder, the custom paper and the endorsement forms. I would like to find a way to quit using my paper logbook all together.

It is easy to handle the endorsements using blank paper or endorsement stickers, but I am not sure how to handle dual flights where an instructor signature is required (or at least where I think an instructor signature is required). For example, from time to time I will fly with an instructor to log some approaches to maintain IFR currency. Or I may grab an instructor to go fly in some actual IFR when I have not done it in a while.

I have gotten some feedback saying that instructor signatures may not be required for dual flights. I have always thought they were and it seems to me that the FARs (61.51 and 61.189) support in this.

So, two questions:

1) Do you have to have an instructor sign a logbook entry that contains dual time?

And if so,

2) Any ideas how to handle this with Logbook Pro?

Thanks in advance.

 

[PropsForward]

You only need the endorsement for ratings. What I have done is keep a blank page or two at the end of the logbook specifically for when the instructor needs to sign. I then enter it as I normally would in Logbook Pro. When it came time for a checkride. I just brought the hand signed pages with me. The pointed out what I had done and the examiner just looked at my regular logbook and was fine with it.

I also made copies of my endorsements using Excell and keep them at the back of my logbook. Good for Flight Reviews, etc.

 

[jtidmore]

PropsForward,

Thanks for the info. Are you saying that for each flight that you logged dual you had the instructor hand write an entry on the blank pages and sign it?

If so, what information did they include?

Thanks.

 

[PropsForward]

You can print a blank logbook page, just run a couple off. This page ends up only having the flights where you got a signature. It will still show the time, landings, dual, pic, etc. The CFI will sign whereever (remarks area, etc). Then I also log the flight in Logbook Pro as a typical flight. I will type in the instructors name, cert #, exp in the remarks along with whatever else he said. When the checkride comes you have the hand written pages to show the wet-ink signature. When the checkride is over, and the hand written page no longer needed, then you can file it away or whatever.

 

[PropsForward]

Here ya go.


http://www.proaviator.com/flightinfo/blanklbpage.pdf

 

[jtidmore]

PropsForward,

Thanks for the info. Since I am not planning on any more ratings it sounds like a non-issue for me, but still good to know.

 

[jtidmore]

Thanks for the PDF too. That is perfect.

 

[avbug]

A flight instructor is required by regulation to sign the logbook of anyone to whom he provides flight instruction or ground instruction. This applies weather or not that flight instruction is used toward a certificate or rating. The regulation presently provides no relief for this requirement.

As propsforward has noted, you may have the instructor sign the logbook other than the line item area where you've entered the flight, but if the instructor signs the back of your logbook, you should make a note specific to the instruction received that enables a reviewer to reference back to the line item in the logbook.

You're always wise to keep a regular logbook as well as your electronic version. In that event, have the instructor merely sign the book as usual, and make a note in your electronic version that the signatures are on file in your other logbook.

Document everything.

 

[jtidmore]

Avbug,

That is what I thought. Can you point me to the FARs that you know of that require the instructor to sign off on every dual flight?

Thanks again.

 

[jtidmore]

PropsForward,

Here is what I am thinking about doing.

I am going to use a page similar to the PDF you sent me. Once the page is full, I will scan it and have it in digital format to be printed whenever I need.

 

[avbug]

What regulation requires a flight instructor to sign a student's logbook? I don't mind addressing questions that are not clear...but you do have a copy of the regulation available to you, don't you? The regulation regarding the flight instructor is among the shortest and most direct there is.

If you'll visit 61.189(a), you'll read:

A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

No where does it state, nor is it implied, that the instruction must be toward any certificate or rating. Your instructor may not provide any flight or ground instruction, without signing your logbook.

 

[minitour]

...You're always wise to keep a regular logbook as well as your electronic version. In that event, have the instructor merely sign the book as usual, and make a note in your electronic version that the signatures are on file in your other logbook.

Document everything.

That's exactly how I've been doing it, but I was wondering how that's going to work in an interview. I'll have this beautiful, printed out, totalled logbook and signatures in my messy hand-written logbook. Are they going to want to see signatures? Should I just scan them and print them and put them in the "back" of my "good" logbook?

-mini

*edit*
PS
When I start giving instruction and keeping the records, I've been told just to do it in an excell spreadsheet. I figured I'd also do that in addition to keeping a hand written copy in my hand written logbook. Any opinions on that?

 

[jtidmore]

Regs

Avbug,

Yes I have a copy of the FAR/AIM and in my first post I referred to 61.51(h) and 61.189. I was curious if you knew of other locations.

Actually I think that 61.51(h) even states it more clearly.

FAR 61.51(h):
(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

​

I was just looking for some other opinions.

In my opinion, 61.189(a) could be interpreted as a single signature like an endorsement.

 

[Ralgha]

That's exactly how I've been doing it, but I was wondering how that's going to work in an interview. I'll have this beautiful, printed out, totalled logbook and signatures in my messy hand-written logbook. Are they going to want to see signatures? Should I just scan them and print them and put them in the "back" of my "good" logbook?

-mini

*edit*
PS
When I start giving instruction and keeping the records, I've been told just to do it in an excell spreadsheet. I figured I'd also do that in addition to keeping a hand written copy in my hand written logbook. Any opinions on that?

Seriously, your logbook in an interview is the last thing you should be worried about right now. Just do your best to keep your logbook neat (as you should with any official document) and it'll be fine.

 

[avbug]

In my opinion, 61.189(a) could be interpreted as a single signature like an endorsement.

That would certainly put you in the minority.

Perhaps every time a mechanic makes a signature, instead of "buying the past", the mechanic can simply stipulate that any further repairs that might be made in the future are satisfactory. One signature for all time.

An instructor should do the same...just sign the student's logbook, and it covers any instruction given today, tomorrow, ten years from now. Nice idea, but just doesn't wash.

Each time the instructor provides instruction, he or she must sign the student's logbook. Fly an hour today, sign the student's logbook. Fly an hour tomorrow, sign the student's logbook.

61.51 doesn't restate what is provided in 61.189; the former provides the requirements that one must have for one's own logbook, the latter sets a requirement that the instructor must abide.

 

[jtidmore]

We agree....

I am in agreement with you. I was not saying that I thought 61.189 was referring to an endorsement, I was saying that I thought this was where some of the statements I was hearing from others was coming from. Thanks for your input.

Since I am not pursuing a career in aviation and not seeking any more ratings I would like to stop keeping a paper log for every flight in addition to my LB Pro.

What I am going to do to satisfy the requirements for signatures is keep a nice printed version of a blank flight log form with me to use for any flights with instructors. These entries can be signed and I can replicate them in LB Pro and keep the hard copies at the back of the printed version of my logbook. When each of these pages gets full, I can scan it and keep a digital copy with my LB Pro backups. I think this is the best solution for me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Actually I think that 61.51(h) even states it more clearly.

***

I was just looking for some other opinions.

It does. What more do you need?

Two notes:

1. Remember that 61.51 only cares about instruction you are going to point to to show qualification for certificates or ratings or currency.

2. The electronic logbook issue will not be completely resolved until the FAA finally tells us what form of electronic record and/or signature it views as being "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator." [61.51(a)]. Until then, I'd stick with a double entry and maintain a paper logbook.

 

[nosehair]

No where does it state, nor is it implied, that the instruction must be toward any certificate or rating. Your instructor may not provide any flight or ground instruction, without signing your logbook.

Notwithstanding the requirement of 61.189, the "lead-in" paragraph of 61.51 Pilot Logbooks (a) "Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

 

[minitour]

Notwithstanding the requirement of 61.189, the "lead-in" paragraph of 61.51 Pilot Logbooks (a) "Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

interesting point...you only have to log time to show recency or for a certificate, but you have to have a CFI signature for any flight training...

so what if that training is in the form of a checkout in the flight school's new 172? or did we cover this already...

-mini

 

[avbug]

Mini,

If the instructor provides instruction, then he or she must sign the student's logbook. Period.

An instructor checks you out, the instructor must sign your logbook.