Are CFI Signatures Required for Logging Dual Time?

[avbug]

What regulation requires a flight instructor to sign a student's logbook? I don't mind addressing questions that are not clear...but you do have a copy of the regulation available to you, don't you? The regulation regarding the flight instructor is among the shortest and most direct there is.

If you'll visit 61.189(a), you'll read:

A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

No where does it state, nor is it implied, that the instruction must be toward any certificate or rating. Your instructor may not provide any flight or ground instruction, without signing your logbook.

 

[minitour]

...You're always wise to keep a regular logbook as well as your electronic version. In that event, have the instructor merely sign the book as usual, and make a note in your electronic version that the signatures are on file in your other logbook.

Document everything.

That's exactly how I've been doing it, but I was wondering how that's going to work in an interview. I'll have this beautiful, printed out, totalled logbook and signatures in my messy hand-written logbook. Are they going to want to see signatures? Should I just scan them and print them and put them in the "back" of my "good" logbook?

-mini

*edit*
PS
When I start giving instruction and keeping the records, I've been told just to do it in an excell spreadsheet. I figured I'd also do that in addition to keeping a hand written copy in my hand written logbook. Any opinions on that?

 

[jtidmore]

Regs

Avbug,

Yes I have a copy of the FAR/AIM and in my first post I referred to 61.51(h) and 61.189. I was curious if you knew of other locations.

Actually I think that 61.51(h) even states it more clearly.

FAR 61.51(h):
(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

​

I was just looking for some other opinions.

In my opinion, 61.189(a) could be interpreted as a single signature like an endorsement.

 

[Ralgha]

That's exactly how I've been doing it, but I was wondering how that's going to work in an interview. I'll have this beautiful, printed out, totalled logbook and signatures in my messy hand-written logbook. Are they going to want to see signatures? Should I just scan them and print them and put them in the "back" of my "good" logbook?

-mini

*edit*
PS
When I start giving instruction and keeping the records, I've been told just to do it in an excell spreadsheet. I figured I'd also do that in addition to keeping a hand written copy in my hand written logbook. Any opinions on that?

Seriously, your logbook in an interview is the last thing you should be worried about right now. Just do your best to keep your logbook neat (as you should with any official document) and it'll be fine.

 

[avbug]

In my opinion, 61.189(a) could be interpreted as a single signature like an endorsement.

That would certainly put you in the minority.

Perhaps every time a mechanic makes a signature, instead of "buying the past", the mechanic can simply stipulate that any further repairs that might be made in the future are satisfactory. One signature for all time.

An instructor should do the same...just sign the student's logbook, and it covers any instruction given today, tomorrow, ten years from now. Nice idea, but just doesn't wash.

Each time the instructor provides instruction, he or she must sign the student's logbook. Fly an hour today, sign the student's logbook. Fly an hour tomorrow, sign the student's logbook.

61.51 doesn't restate what is provided in 61.189; the former provides the requirements that one must have for one's own logbook, the latter sets a requirement that the instructor must abide.

 

[jtidmore]

We agree....

I am in agreement with you. I was not saying that I thought 61.189 was referring to an endorsement, I was saying that I thought this was where some of the statements I was hearing from others was coming from. Thanks for your input.

Since I am not pursuing a career in aviation and not seeking any more ratings I would like to stop keeping a paper log for every flight in addition to my LB Pro.

What I am going to do to satisfy the requirements for signatures is keep a nice printed version of a blank flight log form with me to use for any flights with instructors. These entries can be signed and I can replicate them in LB Pro and keep the hard copies at the back of the printed version of my logbook. When each of these pages gets full, I can scan it and keep a digital copy with my LB Pro backups. I think this is the best solution for me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Actually I think that 61.51(h) even states it more clearly.

***

I was just looking for some other opinions.

It does. What more do you need?

Two notes:

1. Remember that 61.51 only cares about instruction you are going to point to to show qualification for certificates or ratings or currency.

2. The electronic logbook issue will not be completely resolved until the FAA finally tells us what form of electronic record and/or signature it views as being "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator." [61.51(a)]. Until then, I'd stick with a double entry and maintain a paper logbook.

 

[nosehair]

No where does it state, nor is it implied, that the instruction must be toward any certificate or rating. Your instructor may not provide any flight or ground instruction, without signing your logbook.

Notwithstanding the requirement of 61.189, the "lead-in" paragraph of 61.51 Pilot Logbooks (a) "Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

 

[minitour]

Notwithstanding the requirement of 61.189, the "lead-in" paragraph of 61.51 Pilot Logbooks (a) "Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

interesting point...you only have to log time to show recency or for a certificate, but you have to have a CFI signature for any flight training...

so what if that training is in the form of a checkout in the flight school's new 172? or did we cover this already...

-mini

 

[avbug]

Mini,

If the instructor provides instruction, then he or she must sign the student's logbook. Period.

An instructor checks you out, the instructor must sign your logbook.