Approaches-Busting Minimums!!

[CA1900]

...go to ACK or MVY airport during the summer and watch the hundreds of planes land with less than minimums...

You mean like this one? (Hyannis, in this case.)

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

As a former B1900 Pilot, I thought that was standard practice....

 

[climbhappy]

what's your point, visibility is controlling and for 135, 1800 RVR is the min. so at 200, if you see the lead in lights you can go down 100 ft. that is below minimums.

Now that you have collected this great random sampling of data , what are you going to do?

do the "nays have it? or the "yeahs"?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Nope. That's why safety classes teach about cases like this:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR72-20.pdf


The F/O lived (both legs amputated)

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The F/O lived (both legs amputated)

That's truly horrible. I remember seeing this one guy who used to show up at the flight school in a wheel chair to fly with an instructor. He was a CFI or line pilot at some point before being involved in a serious car crash which left him paralyzed from the waist down. It was very sad to watch.

 

[climbhappy]

okay, nope means what? you can't be dispatched to your destination if vis is less than prescribed mins.

that is why we can go with 100/1/2.

if vis sank to less than 1/2 or prescribed after I was inside the marker then I can continue... what did I forget or mistake?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I don't go below mins, period. Forecasts and Weather reports aren't perfect.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Climbhappy...I see your point but, it's "No lower than 100 feet above TDZE provided the red side row bars are visible". Not all runways are ALSF 2 lighting. Remember: you dispatch on Forecasts (TAF) and land with METAR. Not everyone is Exemption 3585...if this pertains to your current ops.

 

[climbhappy]

thanks, yeah you're right on.

 

[Tired Soul]

Uh..no

 

[indefinitehold]

Of course not. Not because the employer wants it, not because I'm desperate to eat, not because I'm about to be out on the street. Compromise your principles, and you have nothing left. Pleasing an unprofessional and illegal employer by violating those principles is NOT worth the price...any price.

What is it about "of course not" that you don't understand, again?[/quote]

Here Here Sir! nicely said.

it is all about perspective, food on the table, or rolling up to the table in a wheel chair. Or not alive to even worry about it.

 

[timeless]

I don't go below mins, period. Forecasts and Weather reports aren't perfect.

Forecasts and Wether Reports affect your ability to dispatch a flight or begin an approach, but the decision to descend below DA is based on in flight conditions as observed from the cockpit. You just need to meet the criteria prescribed by 91.175. Forecasts and Reports have little to do with that portion of the approach.

To answer the original question, I've never felt pressure to nor have I ever illegally busted mins to keep my job.

 

[pilotyip]

Only if?

If I have the gas to go someplace else I would never do it. However that being said, there have been times when I have started the approach with a no go-around mindset, because it was not an option. Fortunately there was always a runway in sight at the end of the approach.

 

[JAFI]

If I have the gas to go someplace else I would never do it. However that being said, there have been times when I have started the approach with a no go-around mindset, because it was not an option. Fortunately there was always a runway in sight at the end of the approach.

Part 135 or 121, I hope you declared and Emergency prior to starting the approach. Part 91 you will only kill non paying passengers but you can legally "take a look"..

I have started approaches that were above mins and did not see a runway. One time the company said they saw my gear go by but did not see the aircraft. I know of aircraft that decided they were going to land no matter what. More times than not they damage the aircraft because they depart the runway at some point because they are not lined up correctly. Some just take out runway lights others bend the prop or injest rocks/dirt and damage the engine.

How lucky do you feel today????......

If it is an emergency, 91.3 will keep you legal but it could be expensive on repairs.

 

[fr8r]

This is not only unsafe, but stupid. If your company expects you to go out and die or possibly get violated to get the job done, tell them to kiss your A$$. When most smaller companies are only offering pilots accidental death and dismemberment insurance between 25K-50K, why would you risk it? We all know that if you are in the lower echelon of aviation... you not only don't get paid enough, but you also are probably over worked and possibly suffering from sleep deprevation. That is a deadly combination. Use the minimums to protect you & yours. There is plenty of evidence to back up my argument.

 

[pilotyip]

Luck?

Part 135 or 121, I hope you declared and Emergency prior to starting the approach. Part 91 you will only kill non paying passengers but you can legally "take a look"..

I have started approaches that were above mins and did not see a runway. One time the company said they saw my gear go by but did not see the aircraft. I know of aircraft that decided they were going to land no matter what. More times than not they damage the aircraft because they depart the runway at some point because they are not lined up correctly. Some just take out runway lights others bend the prop or injest rocks/dirt and damage the engine.

How lucky do you feel today????......

If it is an emergency, 91.3 will keep you legal but it could be expensive on repairs.

No luck it is not something you plan on, sometimes it is something that comes along and helps out, but not something you plan on. You are down to about 30 minutes worth of fuel remaining. You are not shoooting an approach below minimums. You had the weather to start to approach, it is an ILS, everything tells you should get in. You are number one for the approach, you are getting direct vectors to final, you know you have more than enought fuel to make the airport. What would declaring an emergency do for you? However a go-around in this situation could really put you in a world of hurt, then might be the time for the 91.3

 

[JAFI]

Agreed, if you are in the game long enough you will be low on fuel, weather down and no options. Declaring an emergency may not help with the fuel, weather or options, but IMHO it won't hurt when it comes time to explain what happened if something did go wrong.

 

[climbhappy]

if you are in the game long enough you will be low on fuel, weather down and no options

i don't want to reach, but it sounds like sooner or later you'll be careless. thankfully i have a release and while getting in is desireable, if it is indefinite ceiling and RVR 2400, it will be tight. for me it is one and done. glad I have a release. just go to the ALT.

 

[JAFI]

climbhappy, the wether does not always follow the forecast. I have flown when the entire regions weather went lower than forecast while I was in flight. When companies require minimum fuel you lose all options when "you can't get there from here". My other favorate is "the engine is running hot but you can get a few more legs before we have to work on it". I would not call it careless when you are following an approved program. Some times stuff happens, you know like not planning to land an Airbus in the Hudson.