Approach 'encouragement'?

[GravityHater]

Sometimes when I am flying into a smallish class C airport, approach will, as soon as I call up, give me a vector that seems.... very excessive>> Like halfway to freaking east Jesus, when there are only 2 other planes arriving and we are all pretty much the same speed. Last month I was vectored 90degrees from my present heading, while 25 miles away. During the process I heard one twin arrive, a bonanza come in, and one or two a/c depart. It was severe clear, I was vfr and this is not a spot with a lot of UHF traffic, neither do they use another frequency - just the one.
Could it be training?
It just seemed a little silly to burn all that gas and do a small cross-country, only to end up with 10 minutes between airplanes on the runway.
I know, I could call and talk to the sup. when I land but is there something I could gently suggest while inbound to short-circuit this craziness?
Thanks for letting me vent and no ill meant to the atc folks here, 99.9% of the time you guys are Fantastic.

 

[FN FAL]

Sometimes when I am flying into a smallish class C airport, approach will, as soon as I call up, give me a vector that seems.... very excessive>> Like halfway to freaking east Jesus, when there are only 2 other planes arriving and we are all pretty much the same speed. Last month I was vectored 90degrees from my present heading, while 25 miles away. During the process I heard one twin arrive, a bonanza come in, and one or two a/c depart. It was severe clear, I was vfr and this is not a spot with a lot of UHF traffic, neither do they use another frequency - just the one.
Could it be training?
It just seemed a little silly to burn all that gas and do a small cross-country, only to end up with 10 minutes between airplanes on the runway.
I know, I could call and talk to the sup. when I land but is there something I could gently suggest while inbound to short-circuit this craziness?
Thanks for letting me vent and no ill meant to the atc folks here, 99.9% of the time you guys are Fantastic.

Are you hourly or salaried?

 

[GravityHater]

Are you hourly or salaried?

I am 'de boss'!

 

[340drvr]

Tried calling "field in sight" as soon as possible so they can give you a visual approach?

 

[Goose Egg]

Tried not whining about something so miniscule as a vector for spacing?

 

[Moonfly201]

If calling the field in sight does not work (Approach, N1234A has the field if that helps), just slow it way down to save some mileage and fuel, and to make the return vector(s) a shorter ride.

Most of these wacky vectors are due to separations required for IFR operations occuring at nearby airports, and probably not the primary airport where you are landing.

 

[PropsForward]

This is a tough nut to crack. I too have experienced this at my local airport (which is class C airspace). My best guess is that the controllers take advantage of the mandatory participation and keep things as light and easy for themselves as possible.

To this end (keeping it easy). I would say what, how and when you are flying will impact this situation greatly.



What you are flying: A small single engine known to the controller as a flight school airplane is nothing more than pond scum and can be expected to be treated as such. All other small single engine airplanes are going to get less priority and more vectoring than say a light twin, and so on up the food chain. Your 121 carriers and gulfstream jets will get the highest priority and least vectoring.



How you are flying: This is about the best opportunity to get yourself a couple notches up in the landing priority scheme. If you are flying fast and keep your speed up, the controller will like this and reward accordingly. If your radio calls are snappy, concise and to the point without any short stories added, then you can expect some additional priority reward.



When you are flying (Part 1): Knowing your area can be tough but with a little research you can figure out the busy times of the day. This can be accomplished by looking at the expected arrivals into the airport by 121 carriers or even a quick look at your favorite flight tracker program. As always, a call to the tower doesn’t hurt either. The nut of this issue is trying to arrive or depart during a rush. At our local class C airport for example, I know that between 11:30am and 1:00m is not a good time to go on a local flight. At the 11:30am time frame, and inbound, you may not hear a lot of traffic on the approach frequency, but rest assured that nearly a dozen 121 aircraft are lined up 120 miles out for your airport and are not spaced for a lot of squeezing in between.



When you are flying (Part 2): This is for those who rent. Be nice! ATC knows which aircraft are for rent and prioritizes accordingly. If you go flying and have an issue with ATC, be patient and try to let the issue go. It is not that big of a deal. The reason for this is that 1. Someone is going to be flying the aircraft after you and rest assured, they will get some of your penalty vectors just because they flew after you. 2. You might be the next guy to go flying after the previous person has is problem with ATC.



With all of this said. Be safe. I have also seen ATC try like hell to get a tailwheel aircraft to land with a tailwind because they had inbound 121 traffic and did not want to turn the field around for one airplane. You are PIC and ATC can get happy in the same pants they got mad in if you don't allow them to compromise your safety for their convenience.

 

[PropsForward]

Another trick is to make approach happy, then change your mind when you're with the tower.

ATC: N12345 winds are 090 @ 15kts, can you accept landing rwy 27?

N12345: Affirmative

(some friendly vectoring happens and in no time you are switched to tower)

N12345: Tower N12345 with you for the visual 27.

Tower: N12345 cleared to land 27, winds 090 @ 15kts.

N12345: Unable with them winds, I'll need another runway.

Tower: N12345 enter left downwind for 9, I'll call your base.

 

[Kaman]

I'd try that trick anywhere, but Roanoke, Virginia!

 

[minitour]

I dunno...I just try to work with ATC whenever possible...if they need me to do something and it won't put me in danger then okay I'll do it...it might delay me getting on the ground 4-5 minutes but so what....its all Total Time...


as for trying to get ATC to not vector you like that...how bout just ask 'em?
"Approach, N123 has the field just wondering if I can go direct?"

they'll tell you...if yes:
"Thank you sir/ma'am, N123"

if no:
"Okay, no problem, N123"

The only real "problem" I've had with ATC using this approach is a tower guy...told to "continue left base, report 2 miles"
a few seconds later
"Cessna 123 where are you going?"
"uh...continuing left base and reporting 2 miles when I get there"

Remember...they're there to help...see if you can help them out too...

JMHO
-mini

 

[Goose Egg]

I just try to work with ATC whenever possible...if they need me to do something and it won't put me in danger then okay I'll do it...it might delay me getting on the ground 4-5 minutes but so what....its all Total Time...

Exactly. ATC's job is not to cater to our every need, it is to keep airplanes separated. And they do what they've got to do to get that job done. I'll take a vector for spacing and 5 min. delay over a midair any day.

-Goose

 

[cforst513]

Like halfway to freaking east Jesus.

never heard that one before...

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Are you hourly or salaried?

......backwashed coffee through the nostrils on that one!

Tried not whining about something so miniscule as a vector for spacing?

......that's probably the best cure in my opinion......although, even with my steel-wool-rough sense of humor, I might have stated it a little more tactfully.... We fly our plane consistently enough from BHM to MSL to know that it takes 18minutes(consistently on the Davtron) to complete when flying at 359kias. The other day we got "stuck" down at 8,000' and could only fly at 250kts. I stamped my feet like a three-year old and called ATL center every name in the book. After all that b!tching..... the time on the Davtron..........20minutes!! BFD!!! I just read somewhere recently that the "vector" that you always hear the gruff old airline Captain complaining about, costs an average of 2-3 minutes when factored into the total flight.
What I don't understand is why the FAA doesn't consider a "psychology of anger management" curriculum in the PPL program. They wait until you want to be a CFI and by that point you're the "seasoned" pilot who has to "waste his time on that boring chapter on hazardous personality traits"! The next time you get "stuck" on the 20mile downwind, time yourself from abeam the numbers to touchdown and compare it to a normal pattern. In most cases, I think you'll find that it'll only amount to another two or three extra minutes. Besides, don't you like flying airplanes? Why are you in such are hurry to get back on the ground? (......it's all about psychology.. )

 

[Styles]

......backwashed coffee through the nostrils on that one!

Good quick way to get caffeine into your blood stream in the morning, (make mental note to snort hot coffee in the morning)

 

[GravityHater]

"BFD"
OK fellas, point taken. Well expressed btw!

I guess the thing is we are speed demons. Everything about airplanes is speed-driven. Then to get *almost* there and to be flown in circles seems counterproductive.
These Really Were ridiculous vectors. However I can calm down and live with it.
I guess I will save my "Minimum Fuel" trick for bonafide emergencies. (JUST KIDDING, pipe down!)

 

[Vector4fun]

Uncle Sparky; Well said.

Gravity, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is they were allowing for some TnGs the tower was working, not on approach freq. I assume the approach control you were working is co-located with the same airport and Tower? No names necessary.

Many years ago, I used to work a non-radar approach control, so the separation required was greater. We used to use alternate airways a lot. As I recall, Center often had us assign V68N for departures towards ABQ, rather than V68. V68N was a 15 deg dog-leg off the direct course, (V68) Some of the Metro drivers would whine and moan for ten minutes outbound. Ya know what the total distance penalty was for flying V68N? Four miles. In a Metro. Less than one minute flight time......

 

[atrdriver]

This also depends on whether the control facility is civilian or military. I get some of the very worst vectoring from military (training) facilities. They don't seem to understand the first come/first to the airport concept. For example, a 172 will check in 20 miles east of the field, followed by our check in 25 miles north. Airport is landing to the east, and we will get a vector for spacing, although we are showing 250 over the ground, while the 172 is showing 90 kts. He checked in first, and that's that to them. And before you ask FNFAL, I get paid by the minute, and I get paid extra to fly under block.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

"BFD"
OK fellas, point taken. Well expressed btw!

Just in case it was taken the wrong way......I wanted to clarify. The "BFD" comment was a self analysis. Basically.....What's two minutes in the grand scheme of things? I know what you mean about the idea of speed. We get so used to "go..go..go...", that when it comes time to slow down, 250kts feels like "you're about to fall out of the sky"! With RVSM coming and more aircraft in the air each day, I'm thinking that we'll need to adapt "zen-like" patience or there is going to be some "air rage" going on.

 

[GravityHater]

U.S.,

No confusion here, and thanks for the input plus your concern in your last post.
In the same vein, I fear atc guys will take my post as a general complaint about their service - and it was not at all, I love and need you guys!

I am a picture of patience! "Yes, sir, however long it may take sir!"
)

 

[FN FAL]

I am 'de boss'!

I'll extrapolate that that means you're salaried. That sux for you.

I get the same thing every night coming back to class charlie, in fact, I get it every morning leaving class charlie. I look at it this way...they have their reasons and I learned patience. Quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damm...I turn zee knobs, push zee buttons and long for the moment I can get in my jammies, pour a drink and be all I can be on the net when I "finally" get home.

 

[atcloser]

i'm an ATC a ny tracon and thought i would put in my 2 cents. if you are getting what seems like a @$&* vector, there is a good reason for it somewhere. if you are the only one on frequency, and its clear out, but you are on a funky vector, its probably because of airspace limitations. that controller can only put your airplane in certain sections of the sky at certain altitudes, especially in a busy approach control. going into other peoples sections (airspace) without proper coordination is esentially the same thing as you being written up by the FAA for doing something stupid. in fact, airspace deviations are almost as serious as near mid-airs. now, on the other hand, the controller could coordinate to "borrow" another controllers airspace to shortcut you, but that other controller may a) be busy b) be a pain in the butt c) not be able to approve something because of operations in their surrounding airspace (i.e a class D airport within the Class B in which a departure might be coming out any minute). furthermore, if we coordinated a shortcut for every aircraft, the system would be in total chaos. sometimes, its just better all around to run the ATC operation as it was designed, and not tamper with it. controllers too (especially in busy facilities) have hundreds of pages of SOP, Letters of agreement between facilities, and orders we have to follow. again, violations of that SOP are serious.

so all in all, when you are being vectored 20 away miles from airport and you are the only one on freq, its for a good reason, and most likely pertains to the overall safety of the operation in general. remember, we have the big picture, and just because your controller is not busy, the guy sitting next to him/her could be getting hammered, and the last thing they want to hear is about a shortcut for you.

hope that helps.
ps- it certainly helps if you are cooperative and perform well (i.e. descend like a rock in NY, and never slow up on your own).