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APAAD Age 60 UPDATE 06 October 2007

  • Thread starter Thread starter SlipItIn
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 23

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Reason I'm glad I retired at 60

1) No more hotels where the pillows smell like a French whore.
2) No more Gatwick Hilton beds with skid marks on the sheets.
3)No more BS from TSA
4)No more BS from the FAA
5)No more 6 month checks
6)NO MORE COMMUTING!
7)No more flying over the Atlantic at 4am.
8)No more putting up with stupid passengers.

Damn, I love retirement! I can't imagine doing it for 5 more years.
 
Who has more greed, the pilot that wants to keep flying and continuing his career or the one that wants him fired because of his age so he can get his job?

The one who wants to change the rules at the end of the game to benefit himself at the expense of everyone else.
 
9) No more paycheck...

I hope you were ready financially for retirement--I really do. Assuming so, I simply note that not everyone is.

The odds are that age 60 will eventually change. But neither you nor I can speak with absolute certitude that it will or will not change. Nor can either of us give a concrete timeframe for instituting such a change.

Andy, your's is one of the sole voices of reason on this board. I'm not disagreeing with you; frankly, there is little doubt about the eventuality of this action, but the timing is just not a given.

What I'm really pissed about is the absolute "regional" mentality of this board. It's all about "me"--with a vengance. Very little discussion, very little reason (save your most recent, Andy). It is as if many of the posters here simply want to see guys pushed out of their profession, not for rational reasons, but because it is apparently...

...fun to watch someone lose their job.

I'm outta here for another board. Glad I could tweak your souls.
 
The real issue with the age 60/65 rule change is not retirement, working longer, or anything else but safety, period. Face it, after 60ish your reactions/skills take a marked downturn and thats that. I know that ICAO has raised the age limit but they also have a ballbuster physical that is VERY difficult to pass for a younger pilot let alone one who is 60+. I also understand this is a blanket statment and there are always exceptions, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Sorry, but I think changing the age 60 rule is a very, very bad idea.
 
Who has more greed, the pilot that wants to keep flying and continuing his career or the one that wants him fired because of his age so he can get his job?

I only want you fired if you're incompetent beyond repair or show up drunk/high to work. However, I want you RETIRED at 60 because you benefited from the same rule your entire career. Why should you get the windfall at my expense?
 
9) No more paycheck...

I hope you were ready financially for retirement--I really do. Assuming so, I simply note that not everyone is.



Andy, your's is one of the sole voices of reason on this board. I'm not disagreeing with you; frankly, there is little doubt about the eventuality of this action, but the timing is just not a given.

What I'm really pissed about is the absolute "regional" mentality of this board. It's all about "me"--with a vengance. Very little discussion, very little reason (save your most recent, Andy). It is as if many of the posters here simply want to see guys pushed out of their profession, not for rational reasons, but because it is apparently...

...fun to watch someone lose their job.

I'm outta here for another board. Glad I could tweak your souls.

Or maybe some are just tired of the "I got mine, screw everyone else" routine.

Kind of like the attitudes of some of the senior jetblue captains.
 
....like the retirement package at ...UAL...or US Air?

How about the guys who left in the mid 90's comfortably and often a few years early. Amazing what good planning, realistic lifestyle, and a real retirement plan could do instead of fighting to fly 5 legs/day for 5 more years. Granted the formula no longer works, but it sure as hell did when these elder heroes at SWA were content with getting paid 'peanuts'. If their solution back then was simply to fight the retirement age then their contribution to our future QOL is zilch.
 
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I'm to lazy to write anything new. I posted this during the last argument on the issue. Contrary to some individuals imaginations, the SWA retirement has been pretty good to some people. My take from the SWA side:

Everyone has their own circumstances to consider. From my perpective, it becomes harder to sypathize with those forced to retire upon reaching age 60 when the more vocal among them berate those that don't agree with them in the union fish-rap. When I started at SWA in early 03, the union web-page had a "compare your balance" feature which graphically displayed general balances based upon longevity. As the age 60 push increased, that feature disapeared. Although it may have been a legal decision vice a political one, the legal argument seems too convenient. Before it went offline, I copied down a few numbers comparing 401k and profit sharing balances. This was before the rise in the market since then, and in general, the results were as follows - 25 yrs: $2 million, 27 yrs: $2.7 million, 30 yrs: $3.3 million. Around that time I flew with a senior 4000 number Capt out of PHX (great guy by the way) that was very forthright when discussing his balance. To paraphrase "It took me 18 years to earn my first million, another 4 to earn my second, and 18 more months to earn my third." Probably a savy investor, but not uncommon based on his seniority. Again, to each his own, just throwing this out to enlighted those 1,800 guys that have joined the company behind me on what they missed.
C
 
What is going to happen when the age changes to 65 and pilots are forced to retire then. Is this AAPAD going to regroup and say that 65 is age discrimination as well?

Likewise, are the younger pilots who are affected most by any age rule change, going to continue to bury their lazy head in the sand when AAPAD attempts to raise the age to 70 five years after the age 60 change?

I have almost no sympathy for the younger affected pilots as most continue to do nothing about this issue.
 
Since we are agreeing to ICAO standards, Air France Pilots get a glass of Wine with their crew meals. Lets do that.
 
You are obviuously ill-informed or choose to ignore facts. Most who are heavily involved changing this rule have been involved since their 40's. Many continue to work for change even though they have already turned 60. They believe in the principle that this rule is wrong.

But they signed up for this career knowing FULL WELL of the REQUIREMENT to retire at 60.

This is less about age discrim and more about selfishness. In years prior to 9/11, airline pilots retired en mass with little mention of the age limit. Now, sadly, many have had their financial lives overturned and they want the junior pilots to finance their retirement dreams. Some these men refuse to downshift their fiscal responsibilites due to their own financial arrogance over the years. They should never have relied on their retirments in the first place. 98% of Americans do not get the retirement that airline pilots do. To simply rely on your retirement and continue to bruden yourself with debt is arrogant and ignorant... especially when you 1) are required to retire at 60. 2) VOTED for a concessionary contract, which allowed your company to cut your financial legs out from under you. READ: Most of the "yes" votes during the post 9/11 concessionary contract were placed by SENIOR pilots who were simply SCARED of managment's threat to shut the airline down.

My former career was as a Financial Consultant. I had many airline pilots as clients. I can't tell you how many times I advised them to plan for retirement WITHOUT their airline pension. It's too bad so many ignored my advice. Many were blatant about it.

The retirement issue at my airline is supposedly "handled". All contributions are in the pilot's name now. Do you think I will rely on that to kick in when I retire? Hell no. Between now and my AGE 60 retirement date I'm sure some greedy airline exec will figure out how to get his hands on my money. Therefore, I will plan, pay off debt, invest, live responsibly, avoid consumerism, etc. If that money is there when I retire. Great. If not, at least I planned accordingly.

The only way to fairly change the rule is force all those hired under the age-60 rule to retire when they turn 60. Anyone hired after any such change can stay on past 60. To have it any other way is to openly state that this is indeed less about age discrimination and more about financial mismanagment... oh, and greed.

BTW, to blame ALPA for the demise of the airline retirement is like listening to a Michael Moore diatribe. It's a half-truth. The reality is, as Flying the Line VOL II stated, "all politics is local." Meaning, it was the LECs and MECs of the respected airlines who offered a concessionary TA to the pilots to be voted upon, NOT ALPA National. Frankly, it's crazy to suggest ALPA National is the sole villan here. As crazy as listening to Ahmandinijad tell us the Holocaust neever happened.

Instead of striking, performing CHAOS, slowing down, or simply refusing to vote, many of the rank-and-file accepted what their LEC/ MEC handed to them and voted in favor of it. The concessionary contracts were voted in by a landslide (most junior pilots vvoted NO, while most senior pilots voted YES). These retiring pilots have nobody to blame but themselves... or their MEC, if they in fact voted against concessions. If anything, they should be apologizing to the junior pilot on their way out the door for handing them such and abhorrant contract and for failing to lead in the face of adversity.

What ever happened to mentors? What ever happened to leaders? The baby-boomer generation or airline pilots had an opportunity to rise to the challenge and take mgmt on in a war for their retirement and pay. Instead, they (UAL, U, CAL, DAL, AQ, HA, NW) folded and played into mgmt's hand. Once the contracts were voted in, airline managements raised fares 42 times in order to charge the consumer the cost of air travel plus a small profit. Something mgmt would have done in the first place had they been told NO by labor.
 
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