APA proposes pay scale for AE

[Draginass]

There's been several "resolutions" etc etc put forth to go back to ALPA. The latest resolution to even "explore" the possibility was voted down at the last meeting I was at and will continue to be so. It just doesn't have nearly enough support.

As far as the secret plan goes, I didn't realize a plan can still be
"practical" and still be unacceptable one of the principals involved.

As point of fact, the APA opener did not include pay rates. That's usually the last thing to be negotiated. With the APAs integration offer to AMR, I would hope that small jet rates would be included in the event that we can get AE pilots under our contract. Putting all AE pilots on the street, huh? Funny, I don't see hardly any condemnation of APA's offer among AE guys themselves. I suggest you let them speak for themselves.

Those ALPA national goons must really be scary when they're able to intimidate the vast majority of regional pilots to not support the RJDC -- or is it that the RJDC has virtually no popular or MEC support?

 

[Caveman]

Draginass,

Thanks. Finally there is some dialogue between us instead of vitriol. There may be hope.

You have centered on the crux of the problem and that is what and how much is each party willing to concede in order to gain solidarity.

The place to start would be to focus on what each side needs most and what each side can bring to the table to help the other side. It would also be an exercise in futility to exclude management concerns from the debate. They have to be appeased as well.

I think that what mainline is lacking is job security and sustainable growth. Both of these are short term problems in my opinion. What mainline has in spades is excellent work rules and pay.

On the small jet side we need the opportunity to move up to better paying a/c. Personally I think the pay for small jets is only slightly low. More is always better but we are in the ball park except of course for 1st year FO pay. Our work rules at Comair are ok but they certainly could be better. What we have in spades is excellent growth and job security.

It appears to me that mainline has what we need more of, i.e. better pay and work rules and we have what you need, i.e. growth and job security. So, how do get together?

Well probably the only way it will ever happen and make the company a willing if not reluctant participant is to have each side give up a little of what they have the most of. For example, the only way small jet guys will be able to partake of mainline work rules is if they give up some short term growth.

Here is a radical proposal that I've given about 10 minutes of thought to. I'll try to be brief. Since I'm in the Delta family I'll use them as my example.

1. Merge Comair and ASA lists on an equal seniority basis then staple that list to the bottom of the DAL list. Mainline gets instant job security and the bottom of the ComASA folks get instant job insecurity. But this should be a short term problem for the junior guys. I'll explain why in a minute.

2. Dump the block hour scope limits immediately. Management wins this round. They get to use the best airplane for the route instead of trying to deal with arbitrary seat/size limitations. The pilots will benefit in several ways. One, growth will continue because the company can rightsize the airplanes, that lessens their risk. The bottom of the seniority list keeps their jobs or suffer short term furloughs. The bottom of what used to be the mainline list will have to settle for flying small jets at Comair wages, but they will be employed and earning longevity. Remember, think long term. Same for the former ComASA pilots. Short term pain for long term gain. Let the company market the right planes for the right job and growth will continue. Right now they are restricted and growth is stagnating at mainline.

3. ASA works under Comairs contract and all parties keep their current contracts until the latest date that the contracts expire. In other words all contracts would expire at the same date and negotiating for a new work agreement that covers the entire group wouldn't take place until the last of the two contracts is ammendable. Again, management wins this one for the short term. No nasty strike at ASA and they get an extension of the current DAL contract until June 06'. We win when as one unified group we negotiate for the new contract. The result will be the same work rules and benefits for all pilots at Delta, Inc.

4. Impose fences to seat protect what everyone is currently flying. Make them relatively short term, say 3 - 5 years. After that you fly what your seniority will hold.

In my scenario mainline pilots will have to agree to short term limits on their ability to negotiate a better contract. They gain instrant job security and improved growth.

Small jet pilots MAY suffer some short term furloughs. They will eventually gain access to mainline work rules and unlimited upward mobility.

The company gains an extension on their fixed labor cost for the next five years and the ability to market the use of airplanes as they see fit absent of any scope limitations. Their downside is that when the new work agreement is negotiated they will incur additional costs attributable mainly to the size of the pilot labor pool. IMHO they also would be less vulnerable to a strike because it's unlikly that the feds would allow a pilot group the size of a merged DAL/ComASA group to walk out. The economic impact would be too severe.

Is this plan flawed. Most certainly. Like I said it took about 10 minutes to dream up. What it does do is cause all parties to give up a little to gain a little.

Fire away.

 

[surplus1]

Caveman

Good thinking! Perhaps not perfect but way better than anything anyone else has offered so far. You must be a Comair pilot. You not only have a mind, you're using it.

Guess what? You won't get a single mainline pilot to even listen to what you've said. Know why? They might have to contribute something to the solution.

There's not a one of them that will do that. After all they a mainline pilots and that's substantially better than being airline pilots.

Just watch what you get back. I predict at least 20 reasons why it "will never work".

 

[Draginass]

Actually, that comes close to what I would think a "least bad" proposal.

Not sure what you mean by seat protections when the plan would result in some mainline FOs being displaced into RJs at regional compensation (not just pay, but I assume benefits and retirement as well).

Would like to see some actuarial projections on upward movement as well as compensation loss. Also, aircraft projections and market analysis, which there is no clear picture.

Gut check tells me that the company would not see enough gain to compensate for loss of leverage. It's a numbers game and would require some really indepth anaysis.

DALPA would have to be convinced that they are going to lose their scope clause, and so far there's no indication that's going to happen.

In the end, the regionals MAY suffer some furloughes, but most gain tremendously.

Mainline gets to retrograde some junior pilots to RJ captain (presumably seats in new aircraft) (and certainly better than being mainline furloughed) and has its compensation frozen until 2006.

Trying to make it work in my mind, but it would take some serious number crunching and realistic projections. Not convinced, but thinking.

 

[FlyingSig]

Re: Caveman

Know why? They might have to contribute something to the solution.

Kinda like Comair pilots not wanting to loose any of their own seniority "for the good of the solution".

Works both ways and from what you preach, you don't want to give an inch either.

 

[Steve McCroskey]

Dragin,
In an earlier post you said that AMR would have to get a no-strike clause in the very slim chance they would agree to a merger of AA and AE. Why not give it to them as the US Gov't would never allow AA to strike in the first place, too much negative impact on the industry or some other reason. I completely agree on not removing a pilot group's ability to self help, but if the feds won't even allow it and AMR is willing to give something up for the clause it seems like it might be a freebe for APA. I know next to nothing about airline contracts and negotiations. I'm sure there are numerous reasons for not giving management this clause of which I am ignorant. Please enlighten me as to the other pitfalls of a no-strike clause.
I ask this sincerly and would honestly like to know more.

 

[Clownpilot]

>>Well, I got it from the horses mouth, i.e., AA pilots. According to what I read, posted by an AA pilot, there's an active movement among AA pilots, complete with petitions and proposed resolutions, to get your Board to take up and agree to a merger between APA and ALPA. It even includes quotes from the ALPA president. Are you sure you're up to date with what's going on in your own union? If you're not in favor of such a merger you'd best find out.>

Yeah well here's a horse that will tell you straight. I am an AA pilot and I am active in the union. I also monitor all union activities pretty closely. Yes, there is a small yet very vocal group who are proponents of merging with ALPA. They have yet to gain enough steam to even force a ballot vote. Many people, including myself, believe that a move to ALPA may be inevitable in the coming years. But support for that right now is very low. There is no immediate possibility of that happening. The TWA acquisition set back the ALPA movement probably years. Many guys now believe that after what TWA tried in the political arena it would be far too risky to become a part of the organization that represented them. Frankly, many guys are so pissed off from that Bond legislation that they may never support an ALPA move. However, the time may come. But, it won't be soon. Right now overall support for a move to ALPA is less than 10% as opposed to 35-40% pre TWA.

>>Well that's what started this thread. It even includes links (that I can't seem to make work).

I've been trying to get info on where it is. The links take me to ALPA website, but when I sign on, I can't find it anywhere.

It it is true, I find it extremely interesting that the APA, which does not yet represent Eagle pilots, would propose pay rates for Eagle aircraft in its contract opener.

To me, that would confirm completely what I originally said with respect to the APA proposal to "integrate" AE. It is a proposal designed, not to integrate AE pilots, but to transfer AE aircraft to the AA seniority list, without AE pilots.

That takes a lot of cojones.>>

We submitted a proposal to AMR management for the eventual integration of all jet flying at AA. This included bringing a part of AE that flies RJ's into our fold. Management responded that our proposal gave them nothing to work with, was completely unrealistic, and didn't warrant a formal counterproposal of any kind. And frankly we never received one. But, it did end the PR campaign against us that they were using to try to convince people that we were the reason they had to furlough AE pilots and employees. It was all a PR game.

You can go on and on about this issue but as I have said before, scope will control the RJ issue and we must preserve that scope clause at all costs. I am the strongest advocate of maintaining strong scope not only as a control measure for management but also as a control for the 'one list' wackos.

 

[Draginass]

Steve -
The President is the one that initiates the PEB that suspends the right to strike. Eventually, if no settlement is found, then it's within the power of the Congress to impose a contract -- something that Congress would be politically loath to get involved in. It's dependent on the politics, which, of course, sway with the wind. The President will change, but if you waive your right to strike, you're stuck with it no matter who the president is. Unfortunately, the negotiating tactic of most companies is to delay, delay, delay, then only negotiate seriously when a strike is an imminent threat. Without that power, the negotiating leverage of a union is virtually nil. The courts are very slanted towards the companies and very hostile to labor now, and even working to contract minimums can be deemed illegal as evidenced by the court order to Delta pilots to fly "voluntary" overtime. A no-strike provision in a contract is a really bad idea. Without that and strong scope provisions, you might as well save your money on union dues because it won't be a profession anymore, just a job until management can find someone to do it for less than you're willing to take.

Ask some AE guys what they think about their 16 year no-strike contract.

Maybe some others more schooled in labor law can give a more detailed answer.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: Caveman

Kinda like Comair pilots not wanting to loose any of their own seniority "for the good of the solution".

If Delta pilots aren't going to lose any of their seniority at DAL(and they should not have to), then there is no reason for Comair pilots to lose their seniority at CMR either.

Works both ways and from what you preach, you don't want to give an inch either.

Actually I might be willing to give quite a bit to Delta pilots, but you are absolutely right when you say I won't give one inch to ALPA.

Delta pilots owe me nothing and I owe them nothing. We start with a level playing field and that makes a deal possible. A lot of you guys think this is a fight with Delta pilots. It's not.

On the other hand I pay the union to represent my interests. Not only has it failed to do that, it's ripping me off. If there is anything I can do to stop that, I intend to do it.

 

[surplus1]

[B
Yeah well here's a horse that will tell you straight. I am an AA pilot and I am active in the union. I also monitor all union activities pretty closely. Yes, there is a small yet very vocal group who are proponents of merging with ALPA. They have yet to gain enough steam to even force a ballot vote. Many people, including myself, believe that a move to ALPA may be inevitable in the coming years. But support for that right now is very low. There is no immediate possibility of that happening. The TWA acquisition set back the ALPA movement probably years. Many guys now believe that after what TWA tried in the political arena it would be far too risky to become a part of the organization that represented them. Frankly, many guys are so pissed off from that Bond legislation that they may never support an ALPA move. However, the time may come. But, it won't be soon. Right now overall support for a move to ALPA is less than 10% as opposed to 35-40% pre TWA. [/B]

Thanks for the assesment. I won't debate the TWA scenario, mostly because I think ALPA did little to represent them (for political reasons associated with the effort to recruit you).

Anyway, I'm happy to hear that support for a merger is such a small minority. While I am obviously NOT an AA pilot, I think you're far better off runing your own show. The type of politics that caused you to leave ALPA in the first place are alive and well today. The only real difference is that it's being played against folks like me. BTW, you weren't much bigger than we are today back then.

We submitted a proposal to AMR management for the eventual integration of all jet flying at AA. This included bringing a part of AE that flies RJ's into our fold. Management responded that our proposal gave them nothing to work with, was completely unrealistic, and didn't warrant a formal counterproposal of any kind. And frankly we never received one. But, it did end the PR campaign against us that they were using to try to convince people that we were the reason they had to furlough AE pilots and employees. It was all a PR game.

I'm pleased to see you acknowledge that the APA proposal was really a scam, i.e., just a PR game. The only thing I feel sad about is that there appeared to be a lot of "suckers" at AE willing to jump on that bandwagon and failing to recognize what you were really doing. PR though it may have been, in the remote change that AMR has swallowed it, it was a vehicle that allowed you to take the Eagle aircraft for yourselves at their expense. Apparently and unfortunately, many (from what I read in forums like this one) AE pilots are green enough and naive enough to see it as something good for them.

You can go on and on about this issue but as I have said before, scope will control the RJ issue and we must preserve that scope clause at all costs. I am the strongest advocate of maintaining strong scope not only as a control measure for management but also as a control for the 'one list' wackos.

As I have said before, you are entitled to your beliefs and the pursuit of what you see as your best interests. All that you need to comprehend is that we are entitled to the very same thing.

As for the "one list" bit, I am personally against it (which I have said before as well). However, I am very much dedicated to prevent you from controlling my flying or my life and, just like you intend to continue to try, I intend to continue the effort to stop you.

You've made it clear in previous posts that you are not worried about what we think, you intend to pursue your course with no possibility of compromise. There's not much I can do about that, but it doesn't reduce me to cowering in fear of your wrath either.

No doubt the folks with your attitude will win many battles. You're big, strong and very powerful. So was Great Britain, but it didn't phase the Minute Men. History has a record of repeating itself when we don't learn from it. I don't think you all have.