APA Proposal Posted

[pilotyip]

Song succeed

Song will succeed, if when they are running late, the pilots get out of the cockpit to help clean the cabin in order to cut down time on a quick turn. I know they do a JB and SWA.

 

[General Lee]

Flaps30,

The rates would be Comair rates--not mesa rates. IF Delta wants more than 57 total 70 seaters, which they do, they will have to let us fly them. We will allow them to pay Comair rates probably, and that will allow them to have more. Then the 90 or 100 seaters come into play, and they will probably pay more than the 70 seaters, but in a proportional way---with 20 or more seats etc. How is that going to hurt you guys again, besides the expansion part? If we buy the UAL Asian routes someday, that would add more jobs to mainline, and empty seats on the new 70 or 90 seaters. Hopefully there will be expansion someday and things will move again. I don't think guys would avoid being hired at Delta if they have to start in a 70 or 90 seat RJ. They are a lot better than old DC-9's.

This all comes down to one thing---Delta wants more 70 seaters now, and they wouldn't get them without Dalpa's approval. IF we are going to have more pilots out on the street, we should get them back into cockpits as soon as possible.

Bye Bye-----General Lee

 

[HA25]

Re: Song succeed

Song will succeed, if when they are running late, the pilots get out of the cockpit to help clean the cabin in order to cut down time on a quick turn. I know they do a JB and SWA.

Yeah, and while they're at it, they can go out and fuel the plane, and then later get out and drive the tug for the push back... heck why stop there, then they can taxi the plane to the main hangar at the end of the day and get out and clean the outside of the plane and dump the lavs.

Is this what you're idea of raising the bar is? It's bad enough with the economy applying pressure to our jobs, next thing you're gonna recommend is a voluntary free work day to boost margins.

where does it stop...

Rather than tell the Delta pilots to get out and clean their planes, you should be asking the SWA and JB pilots to quit lowering the bar.

 

[sleepy]

Re: Song succeed

Song will succeed, if when they are running late, the pilots get out of the cockpit to help clean the cabin in order to cut down time on a quick turn. I know they do a JB and SWA.

Good point. Even we at ASA help the FA's clean-out the aircraft and fix the seat belts. I wonder if DAL pilots do that?

 

[sleepy]

Flaps30,

The rates would be Comair rates--not mesa rates. IF Delta wants more than 57 total 70 seaters, which they do, they will have to let us fly them. We will allow them to pay Comair rates probably, and that will allow them to have more. Then the 90 or 100 seaters come into play, and they will probably pay more than the 70 seaters, but in a proportional way---with 20 or more seats etc. How is that going to hurt you guys again, besides the expansion part? If we buy the UAL Asian routes someday, that would add more jobs to mainline, and empty seats on the new 70 or 90 seaters. Hopefully there will be expansion someday and things will move again. I don't think guys would avoid being hired at Delta if they have to start in a 70 or 90 seat RJ. They are a lot better than old DC-9's.

This all comes down to one thing---Delta wants more 70 seaters now, and they wouldn't get them without Dalpa's approval. IF we are going to have more pilots out on the street, we should get them back into cockpits as soon as possible.

Bye Bye-----General Lee

General, I don't know where you get your happy outlook. While I really don't care what happens at the mainline (as long as you DALPA guy's stay out of our business), I just don't know why you think DAL management gives a rat's a$$ about your pilots. For that matter, why do you think your senior pilots care what happens to the guys on furlough (I know a few that are close to retirement and they don't seem to care).

Why would you even think about concessions after what your management just did? I know we at ASA will not give concessions, we are making a pretty good profit, and expect to share in the good times here. While they last.

I see DAL headed to bankruptcy. The top management has already set themselves up for it. They are set no matter what happens. In bankruptcy they can lower your pay, end your retirement, change your work rules, and get all of the 70, 90, and 100 seat aircraft that Mesa or Chit can stand to fly. And they won't have to give you or me anything in return. Why pay you Comair rates, when they can pay you Mesa rates (oh yea, we will get them too).

 

[wil]

No outside hiring until all our Delta brothers/sisters are offered a position at ASA/Comair, start at bottom of list for bidding but keep DOH for pay/benefits. Enjoy the RJ until such time that they can return and don't forget to remember us!

 

[justApilot]

pylut.....

in defense of the junior guys at AA....you sir are a DICK

 

[Blue Dude]

Re: Re: Song succeed

Rather than tell the Delta pilots to get out and clean their planes, you should be asking the SWA and JB pilots to quit lowering the bar.

I don't believe this. Nowhere in my job duties does it say that we have to help clean the cabin. Some pilots do, some don't. Sometimes you'd like to help out but are just too busy, it happens. Sometimes you just don't feel like it and get busy with something else. What you don't see are people with free time on their hands during a quick turn standing there with their arms folded watching other people work, with the "it's not my job" attitude. If voluntarily pitching in to clean out seatbacks and straighten seat belts, when I have the extra three minutes it takes, is considered lowering the bar, then so be it. I'd much rather lower the bar then arrogantly assume that turning the aircraft is everyone else's responsibility but mine, or assume that such simple quick work is beneath me. It's a matter of attitude, not "lowering the bar".

Yeah, and while they're at it, they can go out and fuel the plane, and then later get out and drive the tug for the push back... heck why stop there, then they can taxi the plane to the main hangar at the end of the day and get out and clean the outside of the plane and dump the lavs.

This is typical hysterical slippery-slope crap. You don't want to get your hands dirty to help turn the aircraft, so you invent rationales like this. Are you trained to fuel a plane, drive a tug, or wash a plane? Do you think the company would be willing to pay your base rate while you do these things when someone else would do them for 10% of that? Do you see how far fetched such hand wringing really is?

Nobody is going to ask you to do any of that. But you do have hands and the ability to toss pillows. You don't have to be trained for it, and you don't have to do it. But it would help and your cabin crew would appreciate it. That's really all there is to it. No doubt you're too good for such plebian work. Way to go, Skygod. If your attitude is typical across the Song workforce, Song doesn't have a chance.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I think his complaint was about more than just seatbelts.

 

[Blue Dude]

I think his complaint was about more than just seatbelts.

Maybe. But that's the only thing he quoted and commented on, so that's what I have to go on.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Understood, but I think we both know that many people, myself included, fear the problem goes deeper than a seatbelt.

However, we are discussing this on the other thread, so I'll leave you guys to your thread.

P.S.
I've also straightened many a seatbelt! I've been at three different ALPA carriers, and the vast majority of the pilots at each were always willing to go the extra mile. Despite the rantings of many on this board, don't believe that the Delta pilots are too arrogant to lend a hand. We care about our airline and our customers just as much as anyone else.

 

[Blue Dude]

Despite the rantings of many on this board, don't believe that the Delta pilots are too arrogant to lend a hand.

Actually, I didn't believe so. But there's always the vocal exception. I just don't particularly like being accused of "lowering the bar" for just that kind of assistance. 'Nuff said.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I would like to answer, but your avatar scares me too much.


STOP LOOKING AT ME!!!

WHY WON'T YOU BLINK?!!

BLINK, DAMMIT!!!!


AAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,

I think you are wrong. I just read on the good ole Dalpa net that our VP of Flt ops---Joe Kolshack---said in LA two days ago at a roadshow that he definitely could see our furloughs flying 70 seaters to 100 seaters----stationed at different areas around the nation (ie hubs). The costs might actually be lower, due to the fact that the current furlough has 2-4 years with the company, and the Comair Capt rate for 2-4 Capt's would be lower than the current Comair Capt on the RJ70 that is probably in his 15th year etc. Just watch.

As far as Delta going bankrupt---you also forget that Leo and other managers have another reason not to let Delta slip into Chap 11----and it is called 800,000 options for Leo. He and the others will lose even more if they go into Chap 11. Also, our cash position is better than most others, and we are going to receive federal aid soon that will help. The War will be over soon, and summer flying will be huge--atleast domestically. We are not in dire straits---and we also have another ace in the hole---all of the other employees that do not have unions (16,000 flt attend, 10,000 mechanics, 20,000 ramp and ticket counter people etc) can be given a pay cut if the company chooses. That is a great power to have when times get even tougher. And, our pilots will give some back, too.

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[TWA Dude]

As far as Delta going bankrupt---you also forget that Leo and other managers have another reason not to let Delta slip into Chap 11----and it is called 800,000 options for Leo. He and the others will lose even more if they go into Chap 11.

Just an observation: Don Carty also has mega-millions tied in to AMR stock. The BOD ordered him to take AMR into Chapter 11 on Monday afternoon. Only a delay in securing DIP financing prevented it from happening -- and then the APA came to an agreement.

 

[General Lee]

TWA Dude,

Just some observations:

1.Delta didn't buy a debt-ridden airline like TWA.

2.Delta has more cash on hand (most borrowed) than any other
Major---cash is king

3. Delta only has ONE union--ALPA---and can cut costs at any
other employee group without asking

4. We do not have hardly any exposure to the SARS epidemic in
ASIA---because we dumped most of our Asian routes except
1 flt---ATL-NRT. AA, NW, and UAL are hurting---the picture of
the AA 777 at SJC airport with a quarentine (SP?) doesn't help

5. We have plenty of CRAF flying to cover our Europe shortfalls,
as does AA and UAL

6. We have more RJ's and flexibility than any other airline

7. We have a plan to fight the LCC's, and will start flying it April
15th---well ahead of any major--and AA still doesn't have a
plan. Yes, our LCC name does suck--but the plan is solid

8. The War will be over soon---we are taking Baghdad Intl airport
right now

9. We will get some sort of aid from the Gov't---and it will help
somewhat--which is better than nothing--it all adds up on the
bottom line

10. Our stock price is higher than any other major (except SW),
which helps with our market cap.

I am not trying to to put anyone down here, but rather stating that while Chap 11 could come into play here at Delta, we are far better off than most airlines. Yes, our leadership didn't help the situation with the $$$ deals, but never the less we are better positioned than most.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TWA Dude]

General Lee,

Yes, today of course DAL is in much better shape than the others. The point was that if it comes to it Mullin would take DAL into Chap 11 regardless of his personal financial stake. I wish y'all the best but I wouldn't bet that DAL pilots keep making 40% more than the rest for very long.

 

[General Lee]

TWA dude,

There is no way we will make 40% more than anyone else. Those days are over. But, we won't give anything away unless it is proven that we need to. But, we will give some back---no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[80drvr]

I don't think that APA should get 100% of our Capt. vacancies. one for one may work. I am going on four years with eagle and don't see an upgrade in sight. I am sure our MEC will vote this down.

Dude, I think you need to reexamine this statement in the context of what's going on in the world and at your company. We're at war, your employer is teetering on BK and thousand of AMR pilots are on the street. Everyone at AA is moving backward and taking a huge paycut if they're among the lucky to keep a job.

AMR/APA negotiated this TA as the framework for a restructuring. What that means to you is that without the flowback, this TA fails and the company files an 1113(e) in BK to negate your contractual provisions that interfere with the implimentation and you get it rammed down your throat. This TA passes and you get similar flowback provisions bet get to keep what little contractual protections you have. So, if it passes, your worst case scenario will be stagnation with furlough protection. If it fails, kiss the furlough protection goodbye in BK

The reason that what you'll see structurally is similar pass or fail, is that this restructuring is part of AMR's business plan now and it is fundamental to the terms of financing from Citibank to get us through 2003/4. This is a #$% sandwich for everyone in the airline industry right now.

Until the economy improves we're all along for the ride. This won't last forever and once AA starts involuntary widebody assignments and recalling again, you'll upgrade in a hurry!

 

[80drvr]

Just an observation: Don Carty also has mega-millions tied in to AMR stock. The BOD ordered him to take AMR into Chapter 11 on Monday afternoon. Only a delay in securing DIP financing prevented it from happening -- and then the APA came to an agreement.

TWA Dude,

The AMR BOD is Carty's lapdog. The APA decided to fold and is trying to save face.

 

[80drvr]

TWA Dude,

Just some observations:


6. We have more RJ's and flexibility than any other airline

7. We have a plan to fight the LCC's, and will start flying it April
15th---well ahead of any major--and AA still doesn't have a
plan. Yes, our LCC name does suck--but the plan is solid

Have you seen AA's TA? WE ARE A LCC NOW! Don't get me wrong...I'm not happy about it. I think our new mantra is going to be SWA +1%.

 

[flaps30]

stock price

Gen Lee, a stocks actual price per share cannot be compared to other airlines stock price. Its apples and oranges, you have to ask some other questions, how many outstanding shares are there, P/E ratio, ect. Comparing a $10 Delta stock, $4 AMR, and 30$ JBLU doesn't show anything.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA Dude,

The AMR BOD is Carty's lapdog. The APA decided to fold and is trying to save face.

**YAWN**

Instead of making yourself feel better by bashing your own union, why not give some rationale for your opinion that life will be so much rosier with the bankruptcy judge and creditors' committee dictating the pilots' contract.

Numerous experts and advisors convinced the APA BOD that practically anything is better than Chap 11, so if it can be prevented then try to do it. What do you know that bankruptcy attorneys don't?

 

[80drvr]

I'm not bashing the union. I'm just calling it like I see it. The union is a political animal and covering one's ass is the nature of the beast. Only time will tell if APA made the right call or not. We'll never know whether they could have spent another hour on the equity/duration or not.

As far as the APA BOD goes, Carty calls the shots and the BOD rubber stamps it.

 

[Dennis Miller]

Have you seen AA's TA? WE ARE A LCC NOW! Don't get me wrong...I'm not happy about it. I think our new mantra is going to be SWA +1%.

Hate to asskick ya with a dose of reality but you guys couldn't afford SWA + 1%.