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APA fails to destroy Eagle pilots
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FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Posts
- 627
General,
Welcome back from your trip. Just one point if you try/do create another carrier at Delta for your displaced folks to fly RJ's in yet another sub company you need to see the forrest for the trees. That is one of the worst ideas youve said in a long time. It devides your pilot group again (Delta, Song, RJ Sung). You need unity, that not only means your group but working to have if not one list (DAL,ASA,CMR) but then DAL, DCI (ASA,CMR on one list) not what Leo is doing DAL,Song,ASA,CMR,SkyWest,CHT,AME,ACA,ACJet + RJSung?
Dont give Leo the strength that Lorenzo, Ichan didnt have. You (DALPA) are becoming a far more serious threat to Delta Pilots than DCI or any LCC. Just my view from across the street.
Welcome back from your trip. Just one point if you try/do create another carrier at Delta for your displaced folks to fly RJ's in yet another sub company you need to see the forrest for the trees. That is one of the worst ideas youve said in a long time. It devides your pilot group again (Delta, Song, RJ Sung). You need unity, that not only means your group but working to have if not one list (DAL,ASA,CMR) but then DAL, DCI (ASA,CMR on one list) not what Leo is doing DAL,Song,ASA,CMR,SkyWest,CHT,AME,ACA,ACJet + RJSung?
Dont give Leo the strength that Lorenzo, Ichan didnt have. You (DALPA) are becoming a far more serious threat to Delta Pilots than DCI or any LCC. Just my view from across the street.
PacoPollo
MILF HUNTER
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2003
- Posts
- 627
Re: Re: ??????????????
I doubt anyone at Eagle will ever trust APA ever again. If there is NOW an attempt to merge the lists, ratio the flying, etc. no one in their right mind at Eagle would buy it. It really is a shame because there once was a time up to 6 months ago when the synergy was building and it could have worked over time.
"Fool me once shame on YOU. Fool me twice, shame on ME.
N2264J said:
I doubt anyone at Eagle will ever trust APA ever again. If there is NOW an attempt to merge the lists, ratio the flying, etc. no one in their right mind at Eagle would buy it. It really is a shame because there once was a time up to 6 months ago when the synergy was building and it could have worked over time.
"Fool me once shame on YOU. Fool me twice, shame on ME.
Counselair
"He said member..."
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 210
CatYaaak said:It's very simple:
In bad times, all American furloughees want flow-back into Eagle's jet captain positions. Displacing Eagle pilots is none of their concern.
Not trying to take one side or the other. As a former ALPA and APA member I hate and distrust both unions. Just pointing out what I believe is a fact.
The furloughed AA pilots would only take Captain jobs on the newly delivered aircraft. This would not displace any Eagle pilot. On a side note the additional aircraft are being placed on routes once operated by AA. In effect the AA guys are losing half the positions (FO seats) and taking a big pay cut to fly the same routes they were already flying.
Yes I am furloughed from AA as you can see in the left column, however due to a wonderful integration I wouldn't get a shot at the Eagle job for about seven years. God willing I'll have another career or jet job and not have to worry about ever coming back.
Good Luck to All,
Counselair
That's great for the Eagle pilots.
Thier is approx 125 of the Eagle flow throughs flying at AA. So I would think that their should be at least 125 AA flow backs. I am of the opnion that the other approx 400 Eagle pilots with AA numbers should equate to another 400 plus flow back jobs. If they have numbers on the AA list then it's only fair that approx 400 AA pilots get on the Eagle list.
This may be a bitter sweet victory. Because all along I have said, you can always track what AA mgt will do if you follow the $$$$$. What ever is cheaper for mgt is what will happen.
How is it cheaper for AA mgt to continue to operate the 70 seater on the Eagle list when all of the SAME TYPE rated 90 and 110 seaters go on the APA list?
Answer: It's not.
IMHO with the new unlimited 50 seat concession you will see Eagle grow to the 110% limit but only in the ERJ series. This will help the Eagle folks create jobs and growth. But the 70 seater is all but dead with the arbitrators rulling. Take the 25 CRJ's and that's all.
Then I would look for the APA to drop it's pants once again. Look for the second coming of the B scale.
Arpey, " I am willing to call back alll your furloughed pilots and place a huge ERJ170/195 order if you argee to fly it for X dollars and Y work rules (nothing will happen until JetBlue and USAir set their pay rates, which should be sometime next year because they get their first ERJ in 2005).
Darrah, " where do I sign" (3000+ pilots giving 2% back to the APA, something is better then nothing) "it's not my fault we have to work for X rates JetBlue and USAir are doing it"
Good by CRJ series.
Arpey is no fool he has labor under contract for the next 5 years, so you can gurantee that before he ever pays a dime out in profit sharing to any AA employee. All of the construction projects will be paid for(JFK and MIA) and the debt will be paid down. He will also secure the future of the 90-110 seat aircraft at cheap rates prior to the economy turning and the next contract expiring.
Newly created jobs with the AA pilots concessions should also go to the furloughed pilots whose jobs were part of the give backs. Darrah has to come back with something and a boat load of ERJ jobs is just the answer. Even if it means re-inventing the B scale. When's the next union election?
Thier is approx 125 of the Eagle flow throughs flying at AA. So I would think that their should be at least 125 AA flow backs. I am of the opnion that the other approx 400 Eagle pilots with AA numbers should equate to another 400 plus flow back jobs. If they have numbers on the AA list then it's only fair that approx 400 AA pilots get on the Eagle list.
This may be a bitter sweet victory. Because all along I have said, you can always track what AA mgt will do if you follow the $$$$$. What ever is cheaper for mgt is what will happen.
How is it cheaper for AA mgt to continue to operate the 70 seater on the Eagle list when all of the SAME TYPE rated 90 and 110 seaters go on the APA list?
Answer: It's not.
IMHO with the new unlimited 50 seat concession you will see Eagle grow to the 110% limit but only in the ERJ series. This will help the Eagle folks create jobs and growth. But the 70 seater is all but dead with the arbitrators rulling. Take the 25 CRJ's and that's all.
Then I would look for the APA to drop it's pants once again. Look for the second coming of the B scale.
Arpey, " I am willing to call back alll your furloughed pilots and place a huge ERJ170/195 order if you argee to fly it for X dollars and Y work rules (nothing will happen until JetBlue and USAir set their pay rates, which should be sometime next year because they get their first ERJ in 2005).
Darrah, " where do I sign" (3000+ pilots giving 2% back to the APA, something is better then nothing) "it's not my fault we have to work for X rates JetBlue and USAir are doing it"
Good by CRJ series.
Arpey is no fool he has labor under contract for the next 5 years, so you can gurantee that before he ever pays a dime out in profit sharing to any AA employee. All of the construction projects will be paid for(JFK and MIA) and the debt will be paid down. He will also secure the future of the 90-110 seat aircraft at cheap rates prior to the economy turning and the next contract expiring.
Newly created jobs with the AA pilots concessions should also go to the furloughed pilots whose jobs were part of the give backs. Darrah has to come back with something and a boat load of ERJ jobs is just the answer. Even if it means re-inventing the B scale. When's the next union election?
N2264J
Re: member
- Joined
- May 25, 2003
- Posts
- 2,925
Say what?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the aircraft that were going to Eagle in the first place were going to be staffed by APA furloughees under this deal. Of course they'd be displacing Eagle pilots - a whole lot of 'em.
Upgrades to the CL-700, upgrades to Captain, improvements in quality of life issues like getting off reserve, getting a better line and days off you wanted etc. etc. - delayed for years into the future. It is self evident that Eagle pilots were going to be displaced in large quantities and stagnated for years to come.
Since career progression equals dollars, the Eagle pilots would have been capped at their current pay check for a long long time. That's a lot of jack not going into Eagle pockets.
Counselair said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the aircraft that were going to Eagle in the first place were going to be staffed by APA furloughees under this deal. Of course they'd be displacing Eagle pilots - a whole lot of 'em.
Upgrades to the CL-700, upgrades to Captain, improvements in quality of life issues like getting off reserve, getting a better line and days off you wanted etc. etc. - delayed for years into the future. It is self evident that Eagle pilots were going to be displaced in large quantities and stagnated for years to come.
Since career progression equals dollars, the Eagle pilots would have been capped at their current pay check for a long long time. That's a lot of jack not going into Eagle pockets.
Last edited:
Cleared Direct
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2002
- Posts
- 82
Counselair,Counselair said:
This is an absolute false statement. In addition to taking all future RJ Captain positions, APA wanted to displace all CRJ-700 Captains. In addition to that, APA wanted the ability to fill all vacated Eagle Captain RJ positions with every single furloughed AA pilot from the street as they returned to AA during recall. This would be done regardless of the fact that the Eagle pilot's AA seniority number was senior to the guy coming to Eagle off the street.
I will be the first to agree that APA has every right to displace every single Eagle RJ Captain who has an AA number junior to theirs. AMR did not want to have to pay all the domino training costs that this would cause. AMR then suckered the APA BOD into signing off on an outside deal that has been proven absolutely illegal by the Kasher decision. We warned you guys and tried to work out a new deal with all 4 parties involved and you said no way.
You need to educate yourself about the facts before you make such false statements. The new RJs will be put on a combination of routes that might include some previous AA routes. Even if every single new RJ goes on an old AA route does not justify what APA and AMR tried to do to Eagle ALPA pilots. The answer is to stop AMR from slutting these RJS and routes to the lower paying jobs at Eagle in the first place. APA said they would recapture all AMR flying to be done at AA by APA pilots. Instead they have got together with their ex wife (AMR) and slutted themselves to fly RJs for low pay at Eagle. APA shot themselves in the foot.
Yes I am furloughed from AA as you can see in the left column, however due to a wonderful integration I wouldn't get a shot at the Eagle job for about seven years. God willing I'll have another career or jet job and not have to worry about ever coming back.
Good Luck to All,
Counselair
Unfortunately, you have no right to recall at Eagle under Supplement W/Letter 3. Your union tried to illegally give you one though. Unless you are a senior AA furloughee, the only way you have a shot at an Eagle job is to get hired off the street. I feel for every single laid off worker today and I hope you get back to work soon. Lets just make sure we don't all slut ourselves for the available jobs at the lowest price.
Good Luck
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:43:37 -0500
From: CA John Darrah APA President
Subject: APA INFORMATION HOTLINE
APA INFORMATION HOTLINE
This is Captain John Darrah, APA President, with the APA
Information Hotline for Friday, August 15.
SUPPLEMENT W GRIEVANCES: After our first round of furloughs in
the fall of 2001, we filed three grievances against management
concerning their application of Supplement W for our furloughees.
The Eagle MEC likewise filed a grievance against their management
on one related issue. These grievances were arbitrated in the
spring and summer of 2002 and after final attempts to reach a
settlement with Arbitrator Kasher in Atlanta at the end of last
month, we received his award on Wednesday. You can find it on
the APA Web Site in the "Headliners" section accessible from the
Member Home Page.
Since Wednesday we have been working with management to begin the
implementation of Supplement W as defined by Mr. Kasher's award,
which requires that all new CJ Captain positions be bid by
American Eagle pilots before allowing furloughed American
Airlines pilots the possibility of attaining those positions.
Furloughed American Airlines pilots have rights to displace any
American Eagle pilot that has elected to be a flow-through pilot
to American and who has an American Airlines seniority number
junior to them or who has not met the requirements for achieving
an American Airlines seniority number. The number of CJ Captain
positions that our furloughees will be able to receive will
depend on how many pilots are ultimately furloughed by American
and how many of our furloughees bid for an American Eagle CJ
Captain position. The fewer furloughs we have and the more
junior the CJ Captain bids go, the less positions we will
receive. Until we are able to accurately estimate the number of
pilots to be furloughed and which furloughees will actually bid
for these positions, we will not know the final number of
American Eagle CJ Captain positions our furloughees will attain.
The majority of these positions will be ERJ Captain positions on
the Embraer.
Several pilots are asking whether we will get any CJ Captain
jobs. We will still have access to CJ Captain positions for our
furloughees through the displacement of current CJ Captains at
American Eagle. Right now there are approximately 130 CJ
Captains at American Eagle that do not have an American Airlines
seniority number. All of these Captains will be displaced, as
will those current CJ Captains with seniority numbers junior to
our furloughees.
Pilots are also asking about the status of the CRJ. Arbitrator
Kasher's ruling will prohibit our furloughees from displacing
Eagle pilots from the CRJ if they are an Eagle rights pilot or
have a seniority number senior to our furloughees, but we
continue to have rights to negotiate bringing the current and
optioned CRJ70s to American Airlines. We have asked management
for a meeting to begin discussions on this issue.
Also, there has been some misunderstanding that Arbitrator
Kasher's award changes our contractual agreement with regard to
future aircraft of greater than 50 seats. This award does not
change the agreement, which stipulates that the original CRJ70s
that have been ordered and optioned at American Eagle will
continue to fly at American Eagle unless we can do it cost
competitively at American. However, all other aircraft ordered
by AMR of greater than 50 seats belong to American Airlines
pilots.
We anticipate meeting with management next week and we will
provide you with additional information then.
That's it for today. Thank you for calling.
From: CA John Darrah APA President
Subject: APA INFORMATION HOTLINE
APA INFORMATION HOTLINE
This is Captain John Darrah, APA President, with the APA
Information Hotline for Friday, August 15.
SUPPLEMENT W GRIEVANCES: After our first round of furloughs in
the fall of 2001, we filed three grievances against management
concerning their application of Supplement W for our furloughees.
The Eagle MEC likewise filed a grievance against their management
on one related issue. These grievances were arbitrated in the
spring and summer of 2002 and after final attempts to reach a
settlement with Arbitrator Kasher in Atlanta at the end of last
month, we received his award on Wednesday. You can find it on
the APA Web Site in the "Headliners" section accessible from the
Member Home Page.
Since Wednesday we have been working with management to begin the
implementation of Supplement W as defined by Mr. Kasher's award,
which requires that all new CJ Captain positions be bid by
American Eagle pilots before allowing furloughed American
Airlines pilots the possibility of attaining those positions.
Furloughed American Airlines pilots have rights to displace any
American Eagle pilot that has elected to be a flow-through pilot
to American and who has an American Airlines seniority number
junior to them or who has not met the requirements for achieving
an American Airlines seniority number. The number of CJ Captain
positions that our furloughees will be able to receive will
depend on how many pilots are ultimately furloughed by American
and how many of our furloughees bid for an American Eagle CJ
Captain position. The fewer furloughs we have and the more
junior the CJ Captain bids go, the less positions we will
receive. Until we are able to accurately estimate the number of
pilots to be furloughed and which furloughees will actually bid
for these positions, we will not know the final number of
American Eagle CJ Captain positions our furloughees will attain.
The majority of these positions will be ERJ Captain positions on
the Embraer.
Several pilots are asking whether we will get any CJ Captain
jobs. We will still have access to CJ Captain positions for our
furloughees through the displacement of current CJ Captains at
American Eagle. Right now there are approximately 130 CJ
Captains at American Eagle that do not have an American Airlines
seniority number. All of these Captains will be displaced, as
will those current CJ Captains with seniority numbers junior to
our furloughees.
Pilots are also asking about the status of the CRJ. Arbitrator
Kasher's ruling will prohibit our furloughees from displacing
Eagle pilots from the CRJ if they are an Eagle rights pilot or
have a seniority number senior to our furloughees, but we
continue to have rights to negotiate bringing the current and
optioned CRJ70s to American Airlines. We have asked management
for a meeting to begin discussions on this issue.
Also, there has been some misunderstanding that Arbitrator
Kasher's award changes our contractual agreement with regard to
future aircraft of greater than 50 seats. This award does not
change the agreement, which stipulates that the original CRJ70s
that have been ordered and optioned at American Eagle will
continue to fly at American Eagle unless we can do it cost
competitively at American. However, all other aircraft ordered
by AMR of greater than 50 seats belong to American Airlines
pilots.
We anticipate meeting with management next week and we will
provide you with additional information then.
That's it for today. Thank you for calling.
Cleared Direct
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2002
- Posts
- 82
G4G5 said:
Your opinion does not constitute a contractual right. The contractual letter is very clear. Furloughed AA pilots can displace Eagle RJ Captains if their AA seniority number is senior to the Eagle RJ Captain that they displacing.
The only thing that is bitter is going to be the taste left in APA's mouth after their early good night kiss from Kasher. You are right about the money trail and management though. It would cost too much for AMR to pay for all the domino training costs associated with the displacement of a large amount of Eagle RJ Captains. That is why they suckered APA into the ratified TA, in which APA gave up their right to displace to the EMJ positions. Now that Kasher has made it clear that you can't have our future vacancies, it is evident that you shot yourself in the foot. I tried to explain this to you earlier, but you would not listen.
Yes there will be 50 seat RJ growth at Eagle, but it will be shared with AX carriers to keep Eagle in check.
The 70 seaters won't stop at 25. You might want to re-read what your ratified TA says. It includes the firm orders and options as going to Eagle unless they can be operated for the same cost at AA. It makes much more sense though to order the larger future RJs (E-jets) to compete with the market changes. AMR has not made sensible choices since C.R. Smith was at the helm. AMR is no longer a leader in the industry. They are late followers.
AMR will use the 70 seaters at Eagle to hold down APA's pilot costs. The 70 seaters will also provide a stopgap until they realize that they must get the E-jets to compete. By then it will be too late for AMR to get that many E-jets because JetBlue and USAirways will have taken most of the production line.
Wrong. As long as their are no retirement costs at Eagle, even the 70 seaters will continue to operate there. You are right about APA dropping their pants again though. See if you can at least get a kiss from AMR this time before you drop your pants again.
You think 5 years is attractive to AMR management? Try over 8 years left on a 16 year pay indexed contract for attractiveness. Oh yea did I forget to mention the very rare and attractive no strike clause? You don't stand a chance. The Eagle contract has done more to damage the industry than any other pilot contract known to mankind. It is an airline management's ultimate dream. We screwed up big time, and damaged the whole industry for years.
Great. Just do it at AA and on APA's seniority list. Don't try to get Eagle pilots to drop pants for you this time. Stop the cycle of abuse. It is not your fault. Your disfunctional parents (AMR) messed you up bad.
The only thing that Darrah is coming back with is an STD from AMR and that bitter taste in his mouth.
Last edited:
Cleared Direct
Your opinion does not constitute a contractual right. The contractual letter is very clear. Furloughed AA pilots can displace Eagle RJ Captains if their AA seniority number is senior to the Eagle RJ Captain that they displacing.
G4G5
I agree with the concept, that if an Eagle pilot took an AA seniority number then he has every right to get bumped by a senior AA pilot. An AA pilot should not be able to bump a senior Eagle pilot who did not want to flow through. I don't think that you and I ever disagreed on this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
The only thing that is bitter is going to be the taste left in APA's mouth after their early good night kiss from Kasher. You are right about the money trail and management though. It would cost too much for AMR to pay for all the domino training costs associated with the displacement of a large amount of Eagle RJ Captains. That is why they suckered APA into the ratified TA, in which APA gave up their right to displace to the EMJ positions. Now that Kasher has made it clear that you can't have our future vacancies, it is evident that you shot yourself in the foot. I tried to explain this to you earlier, but you would not listen.
G4G5
And neither do you. That was the point of my post. The APA has backed itself into a corner and will give away (work for whatever they have to) in order to get the ERJ 170/195 flying. That has always been my point, the APA will eventually get the 70 seat flying. Why because it's cheaper for AMR mgt. It's cheaper to operate a single type ERJ series. Their is no financial benefits to operating a smaller regional fleet type of just 25 CRJ's at Eagle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
Yes there will be 50 seat RJ growth at Eagle, but it will be shared with AX carriers to keep Eagle in check.
G4G5
How much can they legally give away? You will see a tremendous amount of 50 seat growth. And what did you give back to get that growth? NOTHING!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
The 70 seaters won't stop at 25. You might want to re-read what your ratified TA says. It includes the firm orders and options as going to Eagle unless they can be operated for the same cost at AA. It makes much more sense though to order the larger future RJs (E-jets) to compete with the market changes. AMR has not made sensible choices since C.R. Smith was at the helm. AMR is no longer a leader in the industry. They are late followers.
G4G5
Have the options been excerised? I am not asking for your opnion, just facts please.
NO, they have not. So as of today their will be just 25 CRJ's. The APA fully realizes this as does AMR mgt.
So, you seem to think that when AMR decideds to increase it's ERJ 50 seat fleet to the 110% limit(with a huge ERJ order). They will then ignore the ERJ sales folks and their luctative financing and sweet deals on the ERJ170 series. You seem to think that they will run up to Bombardier (with their less attractive financing) and place the much smaller order for another 25 CRJ's.
Let's just stick with the fact's. They are getting 25 and that's too small a fleet type to continue to operate.
They have always gone to bed with Embraer. The only reason they ever placed the CRJ order was because Embraer didn't have a competative product. Now they have a superior product.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
AMR will use the 70 seaters at Eagle to hold down APA's pilot costs. The 70 seaters will also provide a stopgap until they realize that they must get the E-jets to compete. By then it will be too late for AMR to get that many E-jets because JetBlue and USAirways will have taken most of the production line.
Wrong. As long as their are no retirement costs at Eagle, even the 70 seaters will continue to operate there. You are right about APA dropping their pants again though. See if you can at least get a kiss from them before you drop your pants this time.
G4G5
This is where you are missing the boat. The future pay rates of the ERJ series will now bring the mainline and regional pay scales closer together. Arpey is fully aware that when your contract is up the Eagle pilots will be demanding ASA/Comair rates + for their CRJ 70 aircraft.
He also realizes that the future ERJ rates will be established by the LCC. No lengthly contract battles, "if you want it, this is the rate and these are the terms". The APA say, OK.
To late to get the 170s?
AMR is by far the largest ERJ customer. With the new contract relief they can purchase all the 50 seaters they want. When has an aircraft manufacturer every said, No their largest customer?
He does not need the added cost of 25 CRJ's at Eagle to help keep the cost down on the AA pilots. The industry pay rates and APA leadership can do the same job for a lot less.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
You think 5 years is attractive to AMR management? Try over 8 years left on a 16 year pay indexed contract for attractiveness. Oh yea did I forget to mention the very rare and attractive no strike clause? You don't stand a chance. The Eagle contract has done more to damage the industry than any other pilot contract known to mankind. It is an airline management's ultimate dream.
G4G5
The UAL contract didn't help either. Lines built to 85+ hours and the ability to fly 95 hours a month's. The industry has gone down the toilet. I agree with you 8 years is probably closer to reality.
That's why I am of the opnion that Arpey would rather have the 70 -110 seat flying fully established prior to having to negotiatie it with the Eagle or the AA pilots. If he can do it within in the next year or so, prior to an economic recovery, he will. All he has to do is let the LCC establish the pay rates. This isn't a rocket science decision for him.
With the current APA leadership willing to give away the ranch. Do you honestly think that they will not have us flying for free just to grab that 70 seat flying and save face? "look guys we got all the ERJ flying". They won't care if they have to re-create the B scale(with less pay and bennies) because they will never have to fly an ERJ. The senior folks will vote YES because they don't want to see their dues increased.
The APA has alredy cut staffing and said that they will need to increase dues. So, let's see the senior pilot can vote to give away another 1/2% of his pay(a pilot voting to give away his money!) or vote yes to a B scale, ERJ series, that he will never be part of. Heck most of our senior folks already have the, I had to fly the B scale attitude.
All the while Arpey will be laughing his butt off because he just got the APA to screw themselves again, solve his ERJ problem and inturn solve the CRJ problem.
Or as you suggest. He could order the other 25 options and then have to deal with his inability to compete in the 90-115 seat market for years to come. Just flying the 50- 70 seater CRJ's while ever other airline on the planet can fly whatever they want.
I would vote on the APA offering to give away the ranch to capture the 70 seat flying.
That's what I ment by a bitter sweet victory.
With the arbitrators ruling it is not in Arpeys best interst to have the 70 seat CRJ's on one list and the ERJ's on another. 25 will be all the CRJ's you see. Especially when you consider Eaglenow has basicly unlimited 50 seat ERJ flying.
Your opinion does not constitute a contractual right. The contractual letter is very clear. Furloughed AA pilots can displace Eagle RJ Captains if their AA seniority number is senior to the Eagle RJ Captain that they displacing.
G4G5
I agree with the concept, that if an Eagle pilot took an AA seniority number then he has every right to get bumped by a senior AA pilot. An AA pilot should not be able to bump a senior Eagle pilot who did not want to flow through. I don't think that you and I ever disagreed on this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
The only thing that is bitter is going to be the taste left in APA's mouth after their early good night kiss from Kasher. You are right about the money trail and management though. It would cost too much for AMR to pay for all the domino training costs associated with the displacement of a large amount of Eagle RJ Captains. That is why they suckered APA into the ratified TA, in which APA gave up their right to displace to the EMJ positions. Now that Kasher has made it clear that you can't have our future vacancies, it is evident that you shot yourself in the foot. I tried to explain this to you earlier, but you would not listen.
G4G5
And neither do you. That was the point of my post. The APA has backed itself into a corner and will give away (work for whatever they have to) in order to get the ERJ 170/195 flying. That has always been my point, the APA will eventually get the 70 seat flying. Why because it's cheaper for AMR mgt. It's cheaper to operate a single type ERJ series. Their is no financial benefits to operating a smaller regional fleet type of just 25 CRJ's at Eagle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
Yes there will be 50 seat RJ growth at Eagle, but it will be shared with AX carriers to keep Eagle in check.
G4G5
How much can they legally give away? You will see a tremendous amount of 50 seat growth. And what did you give back to get that growth? NOTHING!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct
The 70 seaters won't stop at 25. You might want to re-read what your ratified TA says. It includes the firm orders and options as going to Eagle unless they can be operated for the same cost at AA. It makes much more sense though to order the larger future RJs (E-jets) to compete with the market changes. AMR has not made sensible choices since C.R. Smith was at the helm. AMR is no longer a leader in the industry. They are late followers.
G4G5
Have the options been excerised? I am not asking for your opnion, just facts please.
NO, they have not. So as of today their will be just 25 CRJ's. The APA fully realizes this as does AMR mgt.
So, you seem to think that when AMR decideds to increase it's ERJ 50 seat fleet to the 110% limit(with a huge ERJ order). They will then ignore the ERJ sales folks and their luctative financing and sweet deals on the ERJ170 series. You seem to think that they will run up to Bombardier (with their less attractive financing) and place the much smaller order for another 25 CRJ's.
Let's just stick with the fact's. They are getting 25 and that's too small a fleet type to continue to operate.
They have always gone to bed with Embraer. The only reason they ever placed the CRJ order was because Embraer didn't have a competative product. Now they have a superior product.
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Cleared Direct
AMR will use the 70 seaters at Eagle to hold down APA's pilot costs. The 70 seaters will also provide a stopgap until they realize that they must get the E-jets to compete. By then it will be too late for AMR to get that many E-jets because JetBlue and USAirways will have taken most of the production line.
Wrong. As long as their are no retirement costs at Eagle, even the 70 seaters will continue to operate there. You are right about APA dropping their pants again though. See if you can at least get a kiss from them before you drop your pants this time.
G4G5
This is where you are missing the boat. The future pay rates of the ERJ series will now bring the mainline and regional pay scales closer together. Arpey is fully aware that when your contract is up the Eagle pilots will be demanding ASA/Comair rates + for their CRJ 70 aircraft.
He also realizes that the future ERJ rates will be established by the LCC. No lengthly contract battles, "if you want it, this is the rate and these are the terms". The APA say, OK.
To late to get the 170s?
AMR is by far the largest ERJ customer. With the new contract relief they can purchase all the 50 seaters they want. When has an aircraft manufacturer every said, No their largest customer?
He does not need the added cost of 25 CRJ's at Eagle to help keep the cost down on the AA pilots. The industry pay rates and APA leadership can do the same job for a lot less.
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Cleared Direct
You think 5 years is attractive to AMR management? Try over 8 years left on a 16 year pay indexed contract for attractiveness. Oh yea did I forget to mention the very rare and attractive no strike clause? You don't stand a chance. The Eagle contract has done more to damage the industry than any other pilot contract known to mankind. It is an airline management's ultimate dream.
G4G5
The UAL contract didn't help either. Lines built to 85+ hours and the ability to fly 95 hours a month's. The industry has gone down the toilet. I agree with you 8 years is probably closer to reality.
That's why I am of the opnion that Arpey would rather have the 70 -110 seat flying fully established prior to having to negotiatie it with the Eagle or the AA pilots. If he can do it within in the next year or so, prior to an economic recovery, he will. All he has to do is let the LCC establish the pay rates. This isn't a rocket science decision for him.
With the current APA leadership willing to give away the ranch. Do you honestly think that they will not have us flying for free just to grab that 70 seat flying and save face? "look guys we got all the ERJ flying". They won't care if they have to re-create the B scale(with less pay and bennies) because they will never have to fly an ERJ. The senior folks will vote YES because they don't want to see their dues increased.
The APA has alredy cut staffing and said that they will need to increase dues. So, let's see the senior pilot can vote to give away another 1/2% of his pay(a pilot voting to give away his money!) or vote yes to a B scale, ERJ series, that he will never be part of. Heck most of our senior folks already have the, I had to fly the B scale attitude.
All the while Arpey will be laughing his butt off because he just got the APA to screw themselves again, solve his ERJ problem and inturn solve the CRJ problem.
Or as you suggest. He could order the other 25 options and then have to deal with his inability to compete in the 90-115 seat market for years to come. Just flying the 50- 70 seater CRJ's while ever other airline on the planet can fly whatever they want.
I would vote on the APA offering to give away the ranch to capture the 70 seat flying.
That's what I ment by a bitter sweet victory.
With the arbitrators ruling it is not in Arpeys best interst to have the 70 seat CRJ's on one list and the ERJ's on another. 25 will be all the CRJ's you see. Especially when you consider Eaglenow has basicly unlimited 50 seat ERJ flying.
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resistance
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 56
Please do not quote me on this but I thought we had an origional order of 25 CRJ-70 and an option of 25. So if AMR Eagle wants to can't they exercise the other 25 since we don't have any more tight scope issues with APA/AA?
As for an olive branch to APA....here is one Eagle pilot who will never negotiate with APA in the future. Unity = Sodomy
As for an olive branch to APA....here is one Eagle pilot who will never negotiate with APA in the future. Unity = Sodomy
Options are just that. The right to PURCHASE an additional 25 aircraft at a predetermined price.
They still have to part with the $$$$ and that's my point. Just look at what they(and every other major) did with all of the Boeing options.
AA will spend the alloted capital on more ERJ 50 seaters, future Boeings that they are forced to take, the JFK or MIA terminal, an ERJ 170 order, debt reduction, you pick it .......
But giving Eagle an additional 25 CRJ's is not going to be high on the list. Not when they have unlimited 50 seaters and no real plan for the 70-129 seat range.
They still have to part with the $$$$ and that's my point. Just look at what they(and every other major) did with all of the Boeing options.
AA will spend the alloted capital on more ERJ 50 seaters, future Boeings that they are forced to take, the JFK or MIA terminal, an ERJ 170 order, debt reduction, you pick it .......
But giving Eagle an additional 25 CRJ's is not going to be high on the list. Not when they have unlimited 50 seaters and no real plan for the 70-129 seat range.
Counselair
"He said member..."
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 210
Cleared Direct said:Counselair,
This is an absolute false statement. In addition to taking all future RJ Captain positions, APA wanted to displace all CRJ-700 Captains. In addition to that, APA wanted the ability to fill all vacated Eagle Captain RJ positions with every single furloughed AA pilot from the street as they returned to AA during recall. This would be done regardless of the fact that the Eagle pilot's AA seniority number was senior to the guy coming to Eagle off the street.
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Sigh, everybody has there own interpretation of what the APA intends to do. Do I think that they want to get all they can for their members, yes. Are they gonna steamroll everybody else in the process, I think they are gonna give it a good shot. My career was already flattened by them. Did the APA ever tell me that they wanted to displace all Eagle pilots so that we could get their jobs, no.
They informed us exactly as I posted above. I don't want your job, I've already done it for alot of years and it's too much hard work. I just want mine back. In addition despite what rumors float around the crew room, the APA isn't trying to change the contract so that I can kick your dog, sleep with your wife or sell your children on the black market. Well back to the pier to sell minnows, hey it's a job and nobody gives a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** if you're drunk all day.
Counselair
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