AP: Delta, Air France-KLM to reap $12 billion annually

flyburg

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Can anyone say bye bye to the AMS hub......

Do you have any information regarding that statement? I just received an email that negotiations between the unions (DALPA, DALPA and the french ones)are still ongoing. As a matter of fact, a meeting has just been hosted the last three days by Dutch ALPA.

Early indications are that a deal similar to the deal that was with NW is in the making. Dutch ALPA is optimistic about the negotiations that are taking place.

The deal KLM made with NW back then ( and consequently between the unions) was hugely profitable and groundbreaking in the airline world (I don't think any airline ever since has been able to pull it off.

Delta has several hubs in the US, KLM/AF has two in Europe. Granted, I'm not as wel versed in the airline business as for example GL but I don't think the JV between Delta and KLM/AF necessarily means the end of the AMS hub. I can only hope that another groundbreaking deal is in the making.

I'd be very interested what you hear from your union regarding the matter?
 

ACL65PILOT

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None what-so-ever. Just a hunch

It is all covered by NDA, but I cannot see DAL keeping a hub in AMS when we are going to be doing a Joint Venture with KLM like we are doing with AF. It would be like putting a hub in CDG. It just makes sense that we would pair down that flying to protect the hub and increase the joint venture proffits.

Scope at the Top end is important too!
 

flyburg

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Allright,

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned as I'm directly affected, but al communications we are getting so far state that a fairly positive deal is in the making

I guess we will find out in the next few weeks.

Greetings
 
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flyburg

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As a further piece of info,

the letter I just received states that the three unions ( well I guess in the case of AF it's about 5) have met the last few months in order to come to a comprehensive set of protocols ( these protocols to be presented towards the respective companies and then entered into the respective CLA's)to protect each others interest.

The spirit between the unions seems to be extraordinary good. The communication between DALPA and Delta managment are extremely good, with good info sharing. The same is said about D(utch)ALPA and KLM. Only the relationship between AF and it's unions leaves something to be desired. Witch is followed closely by D(utch) ALPA.However, they are positive about the outcome.

That in a nut shell is what I just read.

Once again, I do have an interest, so I'm following it closely. The deal between KLM and NW was groundbreaking, looked at with envy by a lot of other airlines. I can only hope that the next deal followes that spirit.

Btw what does NDA mean?

Greetings
 

avrodriver

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Can anyone say bye bye to the AMS hub......

It's not much of a hub to begin with. Do we fly anywhere else out of there (that people would connect on) other than India?

I could see things staying status quo with this just strengthing things.

Delta flights coming in from various cities in the States to feed KLM flights in AMS.

Just as "single" NWA was already doing and as "single" Delta was/is starting to do with Air France (a la the new proposed flights between PIT & RDU).

While bigger markets would probably be dominated by the foreign carriers "heavy metal", when it comes smaller markets (such as BDL & PDX) we still have better name recognition as well as the 757/767's to support them. I'd imagine there are still quite a few dots to connect.
 
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General Lee

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There will be a lot more service probably from smaller cities (with our 757ER), just like the previously announced PIT-CDG, RDU--CDG etc. If AMS remains a large transatlantic hub--BDL to AMS will probably come back in better times, and other city pairs will result. I can see SLC-AMS also too maybe. There will be lots of planes crossing each day, and smaller cities in Europe will benefit too on the other end as connection through Paris and Amsterdam increase, as well as at our hubs over here. Sounds good, I hope ALPA has been paying attention and talking with Dutch and the French union people too.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

FBN0223

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Can anyone say bye bye to the AMS hub......

You've obviously never been to Schipol. It's a much nicer than CDG. No more parking on hardstands and riding a bus to the terminal.

So if we eliminate AMS, would that mean moving all the intl KLM traffic down to CDG? Not possible, I know.

Sorry, Schipol is one of our strongest assets according to RA and crew. Take a look at the operation in AMS report back and tell us if you really think it's going away.
 
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flyburg

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Sounds good, I hope ALPA has been paying attention and talking with Dutch and the French union people too.


Bye Bye--General Lee


Well, as I mentioned in my earlier two or three post's that's seems to be the case.

Once again, I guess we will find out within the next few weeks.

bye bye flyburg
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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It would be stupid stupid stupid to close the AMS hub.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I am not saying it would be smart. What I am saying is with KLM being a partner, we might pair that flying down, or dole it out differently.
Remember that we do not fly JFK-CDG. It is all done by AF.
 

ACL65PILOT

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The AF and KLM pilots union's are very strong. I would like being at a table with them, as long as they are on our side.
We may actually gain some protections with all three of us at the table.
 

ACL65PILOT

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You've obviously never been to Schipol. It's a much nicer than CDG. No more parking on hardstands and riding a bus to the terminal.

So if we eliminate AMS, would that mean moving all the intl KLM traffic down to CDG? Not possible, I know.

Sorry, Schipol is one of our strongest assets according to RA and crew. Take a look at the operation in AMS report back and tell us if you really think it's going away.

KLM could grow too. I am not sure we will continue to see us do AMS-BOM. Just a guess, but I can see them doing that and us redeploying that asset somewhere else.
12 Billion a year is a ton of money. That is over 1/4 of our (DAL) stand alone revenue annually.
I have been to Schipol. I would prefer to grow it. I am just not sure we can grow ops out of their with the type of deal this is.
As I said, it is just me thinking outloud.

These joint ventures are great from a financial standpoint, but if not take seriously can really ding the pilots.
Funny thing is that we the DAL pilots are probably the cheap labor in all of this.
Any idea what the AF and KLM pilots make? If Mike O'Learly's guys make 200K a year in the left seat, I immagine that these guys make a ton more.
 

flyburg

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Well, fortunately, I have great confidence in the respective union negotiation commitee's. I'm fairly optimistic that any deal panned out will benefit each pilot group.

Your figures about Ryan Air are not completely accurate but to give you an idea about pay scales with KLM ( I don't know about AF, they seem to be about the same but more complicated) a widebody captain tops out at 240.000 euro, a widebody FO top's out at about 3/4 of that (180.000). being a 8 year FO on the 73 I make 118.000 and if I stay in that seat it could top out at approx 150.000. A captain on the 73 with my seniortity would make about 160.000. All of this with a DB privately managed pension plan

Hope that helps,

greetings
 

General Lee

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The AF and KLM pilots union's are very strong. I would like being at a table with them, as long as they are on our side.
We may actually gain some protections with all three of us at the table.

Notice that KLM pilots on the Fokker 50 (turboprop) can bid up to whatever plane they can hold---737, A330 etc. I wish we did that, after a regional staple of course. I don't know much about the AF pilots and their subsidiaries (like Regional Airlines, and Britt Air), and how their hiring goes. KLM has it right though.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

ACL65PILOT

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Well, fortunately, I have great confidence in the respective union negotiation commitee's. I'm fairly optimistic that any deal panned out will benefit each pilot group.

Your figures about Ryan Air are not completely accurate but to give you an idea about pay scales with KLM ( I don't know about AF, they seem to be about the same but more complicated) a widebody captain tops out at 240.000 euro, a widebody FO top's out at about 3/4 of that (180.000). being a 8 year FO on the 73 I make 118.000 and if I stay in that seat it could top out at approx 150.000. A captain on the 73 with my seniortity would make about 160.000. All of this with a DB privately managed pension plan

Hope that helps,

greetings


Needless to say you get a heck of a lot more than our guys too. Out 777 CA might make 200K USD if he is lucky.
As for Ryan. It came from a bud that works there.
 

ACL65PILOT

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Notice that KLM pilots on the Fokker 50 (turboprop) can bid up to whatever plane they can hold---737, A330 etc. I wish we did that, after a regional staple of course. I don't know much about the AF pilots and their subsidiaries (like Regional Airlines, and Britt Air), and how their hiring goes. KLM has it right though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

That they do. Lets hope we can bring our pay to their levels!
 
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