AOPA Article: The glory days are over

[satpak77]

FedEx and UPS have pensions and they won't be going away.

Replace with

Pan Am
TWA
American
Delta
United
US Airways (old)
Flying Tigers

of course, with your extensive experience, you knew that.

Never say never in aviation

 

[Lake Alice]

FedEx and UPS have pensions and they won't be going away.

Thats where you are dead wrong!

The thought that FedEx and UPS are immune or somehow not succeptible to any of the problems that plague US carriers today is not only naive but irresponsible.

The problems we face in the pax world today were never predicted. I'm not saying, by any stretch, that a downturn is inevitable just that its certainly possible. Like I said, to think otherwise is very, very naive.

Unlike the above post this is not a shot at anyone and I'm certainly not questioning your experience. Knowledge of an industry, past, present or future has little to do with type ratings.

 

[Snaab]

I second that,SNAAB Hang in there brother you are on track.: )

Thank you. In case anyone missed my point, I was saying I enjoy the tangibles of my job; the flying part. Would I like to and do I think I should make more than a paltry $20,000/year? Absolutely! I'm not proud that figure. I said I'm 26 and single. I don't have a mortgage, payments on a new Bimmer, or kids in private school. If I had to shoulder these things, I couldn't possibly be in my current position. But, gotta start somewhere, folks.

Snaab

 

[Reebo]

If you're bouncing around from job to job like Schiff's son it's a lousy way to go.

Paul didn't have to leave Trans States, he elected to. Thought Air Whisky would be a better deal. Had he stayed at Trans States he'd be a EMB Capt making 65k with about 13-15 days off a month. Not the best, but not to shabby either.

 

[ivauir]

This job is changing as we speak, but the longer the artifical stasis of regulation remained in place, the harder the change to deregulation. Remember, many of the lousy jobs that we bemoan today did not exist in the "glory days".

By no means am I defending lousy wages and lack of benefits, especially what has happened to the legacies. but I also don't think the industry is anywhere close to equalibrium. The worse conditions are in the industry today, the fewer people will pursue it, reducing the supply of pilots and eventually driving compensation up. Well, untill it goes down again!

 

[satpak77]

But, gotta start somewhere, folks. Snaab

Thanks for the words of wisdom spoken from the high altar that your extensive experience as a SAAB F/O has given you.

the flightinfo readership was not aware of all the points you brought up

maybe when you DO get a mortgage, a wife, and kids of your own (oh yeah and your ATP), you can continue to educate us about "life" from your perspective.

 

[PCL_128]

Dave Ben-

Do we all have to be cynical bitter losers?

I'd rather be bitter than delusional.

 

[flx757]

FedEx and UPS have pensions and they won't be going away.

Ready2Fly is TheGuat, Rhoid, IHaveAPension, LucyFurr, E170GuppyKiller, TheGuppyKiller, GuppyKiller, TheMissingLink, ABXpert, UPSer, RJDC, OUT, 410Dude, BR549, FreightNazi....etc...etc... Ignore anything and everything he has to say. He has been "permanently" banned over 20 times yet continues to come around just to annoy people. Swat this fly.

 

[Ready2Fly]

Ready2Fly is TheGuat, Rhoid, IHaveAPension, LucyFurr, E170GuppyKiller, TheGuppyKiller, GuppyKiller, TheMissingLink, ABXpert, UPSer, RJDC, OUT, 410Dude, BR549, FreightNazi....etc...etc... Ignore anything and everything he has to say. He has been "permanently" banned over 20 times yet continues to come around just to annoy people. Swat this fly.

If he is, at least he will have a pension and you will not!

 

[flx757]

Sorry, but I already do. However, thanks for playing. Play while you still can.

 

[psycho]

The Glory days are indeed over. What Captain Schiiff is lamenting is the fact that he could not provide his sons with a fast track to the upper middle class. Flying airplanes is now a free for all, and working class kids have a shot too. Welcome to the jungle.

 

[Snaab]

Thanks for the words of wisdom spoken from the high altar that your extensive experience as a SAAB F/O has given you.

the flightinfo readership was not aware of all the points you brought up

maybe when you DO get a mortgage, a wife, and kids of your own (oh yeah and your ATP), you can continue to educate us about "life" from your perspective.

And what extensive experience do you possess, oh high-and-might Fred Rogers? Looks like a Super King Air and a 1900. Want more of my education on life? Get off this site and go back to Sesame Street! At least you'll have the attention of little five-year-old boys who you think are cute. Thanks for playing. Bu-bye.

Snaab

 

[satpak77]

And what extensive experience do you possess, oh high-and-might Fred Rogers? Looks like a Super King Air and a 1900. Want more of my education on life? Get off this site and go back to Sesame Street! At least you'll have the attention of little five-year-old boys who you think are cute. Thanks for playing. Bu-bye.

Snaab

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

just the response I expected.....

 

[AA717driver]

Barry Schiff had a golden career. Had he been hired a mere 6 years later, his career would have been crap. He would have been furloughed for nearly half his career and sat at the panel until the final 10 years with the final 5 years as NB Capt and he'd be flying at NJA (like some others I know from TWA) just to make ends meet. Timing is everything.

As it stands now, if you aren't in aviation for the pure joy of flying, GET OUT NOW! You'll probably be miserable and spend 20 years or so 'sharing' your misery with others.

I was hired just before Barry's son, Brian at TWA and have gotten lucky since my furlough. Brian is still flying probably because he loves the job, just like me. The current environment will surely weed out those who aren't serious about flying and willing to take the road regardless of where it ends up.TC

P.S.--All of you taking swipes at Snaab, why aren't you doing the same for TWA dude and me? We both have good attitudes about the industry and have been crapped on... Don't give someone crap for trying to make the best of a lousy situation all the while you're staying in the same lousy conditions.

 

[Sporto]

How sad

Great post BSlick. I could'nt agree with the author more.

Had I known the industry was going to turn out this way I would never had chosen this profession. For the time and money in aviation education it takes, along with poverty wages, I could have had a masters, maybe a doctorate in any other field of choice. Problem is that I am in too deep now. At least I have cultivated another side business to hedge my volatile aviation career.

One thing is for sure. If any family member, kid, etc. ever asks my advice about getting into a flying career make no mistake, after I get through with them they will run like the wind in another direction.

 

[vetrider]

Barry Schiff had a golden career. Had he been hired a mere 6 years later, his career would have been crap. He would have been furloughed for nearly half his career and sat at the panel until the final 10 years with the final 5 years as NB Capt and he'd be flying at NJA (like some others I know from TWA) just to make ends meet. Timing is everything.

As it stands now, if you aren't in aviation for the pure joy of flying, GET OUT NOW! You'll probably be miserable and spend 20 years or so 'sharing' your misery with others.

I was hired just before Barry's son, Brian at TWA and have gotten lucky since my furlough. Brian is still flying probably because he loves the job, just like me. The current environment will surely weed out those who aren't serious about flying and willing to take the road regardless of where it ends up.TC

P.S.--All of you taking swipes at Snaab, why aren't you doing the same for TWA dude and me? We both have good attitudes about the industry and have been crapped on... Don't give someone crap for trying to make the best of a lousy situation all the while you're staying in the same lousy conditions.

My dad was hired in 66 at another major and while never furloughed he was an engineer for 8 years and an fo for another 11 after that. Those hired in 64 or so made captain earlier on and stayed there. Still he was better off than those who were hired in 69 or 70 or so who were furloughed for the better part of the 70s.

The rest of your post is pretty darn good, says it better than I could. I remember my dad explaining to me that I was not likely to have the career he had when I started into this, well he was right. My career has been worse and better at the same time, if that makes any sense.

At my airline now we have some TWA folks, all great people.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd rather be bitter than delusional.

But knowing your situation, how can you anything but positive, optimisitc and forward thinking?

Now, someone who has been displaced, furloughed, withheld and furloughed again might be bitter.... if they choose to allow thier circumstance to control them.....

:beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Great post BSlick. I could'nt agree with the author more.

Had I known the industry was going to turn out this way I would never had chosen this profession. For the time and money in aviation education it takes, along with poverty wages, I could have had a masters, maybe a doctorate in any other field of choice. Problem is that I am in too deep now. At least I have cultivated another side business to hedge my volatile aviation career.

One thing is for sure. If any family member, kid, etc. ever asks my advice about getting into a flying career make no mistake, after I get through with them they will run like the wind in another direction.

Some us intended to be professional Air Line Pilots from the beginning. And we are just as committed since day one.

We are willing to get involved and work hard (beyond the flightdeck) to ensure that being an Air Line Pilot is a career worthwhile.

The entire paradigm has shifted....

That is fine.... We just need to make lemonade

 

[30West]

Thanks for the words of wisdom spoken from the high altar that your extensive experience as a SAAB F/O has given you.

the flightinfo readership was not aware of all the points you brought up

maybe when you DO get a mortgage, a wife, and kids of your own (oh yeah and your ATP), you can continue to educate us about "life" from your perspective.

There's also something to be said for living within your means. If you're stretched too far out by your wife, kids and mortgage it's nobody's fault but your own.
Where is it written when you do get that "ATP" and "life experience" you have to become a bitter old prune? If you do, then it's time to switch careers.

Fly safe

 

[satpak77]

There's also something to be said for living within your means. If you're stretched too far out with by your wife, kids and mortgage it's nobody's fault but your own.
Where is it written when you do get that "ATP" and "life experience" you have to become a bitter old prune? If you do, then it's time to switch careers.

Fly safe

 

[Morning Wood]

Barry Schiff had a golden career. Had he been hired a mere 6 years later, his career would have been crap. He would have been furloughed for nearly half his career and sat at the panel until the final 10 years with the final 5 years as NB Capt and he'd be flying at NJA (like some others I know from TWA) just to make ends meet. Timing is everything.

As it stands now, if you aren't in aviation for the pure joy of flying, GET OUT NOW! You'll probably be miserable and spend 20 years or so 'sharing' your misery with others.

I was hired just before Barry's son, Brian at TWA and have gotten lucky since my furlough. Brian is still flying probably because he loves the job, just like me. The current environment will surely weed out those who aren't serious about flying and willing to take the road regardless of where it ends up.TC

P.S.--All of you taking swipes at Snaab, why aren't you doing the same for TWA dude and me? We both have good attitudes about the industry and have been crapped on... Don't give someone crap for trying to make the best of a lousy situation all the while you're staying in the same lousy conditions.

Exactly what Barry didn't mention. This industry is really all about
timing. Two friends of mine were both hired by TWA (one a year
after Barry and the other 4 years after). The one hired in 1965
essentially mirrored Barry's career. The one hired in 1968 was
furloughed 3 times and was still flying as a 727 F/O in 1988.
He did end up being one of the few TWA guys that got
to stay captains after the AA deal, but the 3 year difference
in hire dates was huge.

 

[Motive Flow]

Paul didn't have to leave Trans States, he elected to. Thought Air Whisky would be a better deal. Had he stayed at Trans States he'd be a EMB Capt making 65k with about 13-15 days off a month. Not the best, but not to shabby either.

That's correct. Beware the dangers of a lateral move (especially between regionals). Sometimes it works, but there are plenty of people that jumped to another regional and got screwed.

Also, if an airline wanted you to have a wife, kids, and a house, they would have issued them to you on the first day of ground school with your Systems manual and Jepps.:laugh: