Anyone tired of RJ v mainline arguments?

macdaddy

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Got my "Pilots United with America" mailer yesterday. More on guns in cockpit and smartcards. Tired of ALPA HQ going on about those subjects.

Tired of reading arguments on this forum back and forth about RJ defense, scope etc.

How about some agreement and common ground.

Woerth and ALPA HQ are missing the boat.

Chances are slim that Al-Qaeda or any other terrorist organization will ever accomplish anything close to 9-11. The biggest problem since 9-11 is ECONOMICS AND NET PAY LOSS for airline pilots.

Management is cramming down our throats the loss of higher paying jobs. Regionals are not the enemy per se. Management is. What coordinated effort to reduce the erosion is ALPA going to do???

What is the solution? When is ALPA going to "unite all pilots in america" and collectively respond to management?? All that seems to be happening is division.
 

skydiverdriver

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How do you propose we unite them?

I personally don't get tired of the arguements, as they seem to cover different ground recently. Of course, if you don't like them, nobody is requiring you to read them. Just simply change the channel.
 

macdaddy

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Seems like you rehash the same stuff over and over while taking "clever" potshots at each other.

Whipsaw will continue and management will not unite seniority lists or merge companies unless:

1. It is in their economic interest.

2. We somehow force them to do it.

When will our professional association (union is a bad word) do something to make these things even a remote possibility?

Where is the grass roots effort? When is some organization going to take place?

Surely somebody out there is concerned about the good of the profession as a whole, and not just sniping back and forth.

Backstabbing between pilots is just what AMR, UAL, Delta and USAir management want.

Stop it.
 
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NYRANGERS

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macdaddy said:
Seems like you rehash the same stuff over and over while taking "clever" potshots at each other.

Whipsaw will continue and anagement will not unite seniority lists or merge companies unless:

1. It is in their economic interest

2. We somehow force them to do it.

When will our professional association (union is a bad word) do something to make these things even a remote possibility?

Where is the grass roots effort? When is some organization going to take place?

Surely somebody out there is concerned about the good of the profession as a whole, and not just sniping back and forth.

Backstabbing is just what AMR, UAL, Delta and USAir want.

Stop it.

Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Freight Dog

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AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


macdaddy said:
Seems like you rehash the same stuff over and over while taking "clever" potshots at each other.

Whipsaw will continue and management will not unite seniority lists or merge companies unless:

1. It is in their economic interest.

2. We somehow force them to do it.

When will our professional association (union is a bad word) do something to make these things even a remote possibility?

Where is the grass roots effort? When is some organization going to take place?

Surely somebody out there is concerned about the good of the profession as a whole, and not just sniping back and forth.

Backstabbing between pilots is just what AMR, UAL, Delta and USAir management want.

Stop it.
 

skydiverdriver

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Why do you guys copy what someone else just posted, and then make no comment? I'm sure we can all scroll up if we forgot the previous post.

The grass-roots organization you ask about is called the RJDC. This is the only group willing to take the ridicule and difficulty people like you are providing, to try and make a change for the better. If you have a better idea, I am willing to hear it.
 

MetroSheriff

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skydiverdriver said:
The grass-roots organization you ask about is called the RJDC. This is the only group willing to take the ridicule and difficulty people like you are providing, to try and make a change for the better. If you have a better idea, I am willing to hear it.
Abolishment of scope, and bankrupty of ALPA is somehow better???

This question is rhetorical and requires no reply.
 

surplus1

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MetroSheriff said:


Abolishment of scope, and bankrupty of ALPA is somehow better???

This question is rhetorical and requires no reply.
In that neither the abolishment of scope nor the bankruptcy of the ALPA are objectives of the litigation, it appears you got lost in the documentation, in the debate or both.

Thus, your response is rhetorical and without substance.

Unlock your mind and open it to a review of the issues. Perhaps litigation is not the best option. If that is your belief, offer a different option that you believe is superior. It is not necessary to misrepresent the purpose of the litigation in order to voice your disagreement with litigation as a remedy.

The issues are there and require a solution. If you (or anyone else) has an idea that in your opinion is superior to litigation, present it.

I respectfully submit that agruing against the litigation itself, while leaving the real issues unresolved will not change anything. When and equitable solution to the issues is offered, the litigation will vanish. Otherwise, the courts will rule on the merits of the issues.

Perhaps you believe that there ARE no problems. If that is the case we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Freight Dog

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surplus1 said:


In that neither the abolishment of scope nor the bankruptcy of the ALPA are objectives of the litigation, it appears you got lost in the confusion.

How do you explain $100,000,000 being asked for in your lawsuit?

Can you please elaborate? Maybe I've read the wrong lawsuit.
 

surplus1

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Freight Dog,

I will respond to your post and question in one of the other threads where you are active.

I really don't want to get too involved in this thread by reapeating the same arguments here. Sorry.

Fly safe.
 

FlyDeltasJets

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Freight Dog said:


How do you explain $100,000,000 being asked for in your lawsuit?

Can you please elaborate? Maybe I've read the wrong lawsuit.
Freight,

Actually, the figure is far higher. They are asking for $100,000,000 PLUS "No less than $2,000,000" for each CMR pilot for EACH of six complaints.

We're talking BILLIONS.

Do I think they'll get it? No. But people should know what they are asking for.
 

skydiverdriver

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Wow, that's a lot of money. I would ask for more, but I guess the amount is sufficient since someone is finally listening to us on this matter.
 

FlyDeltasJets

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I'm listening, but I don't really count. Besides, I was listening before the suit. However, the people whose opinions really count are now not only not listening, but pissed off.

I suspect that was not the desired result of the suit. Or maybe it was?
 

surplus1

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FlyDeltasJets said:
However, the people whose opinions really count are now not only not listening, but pissed off.
You're right on both counts. The first is a positive. With regard to the second, do you know why?

Answer: They'be been caught with their hands in the cookie jar. That my friend, is why they're PO'd.

"We have seen the Emperor, without his clothes."
 

FlyDeltasJets

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I can't speak for others, but I'll tell you why I'm pissed off. Your group is asking for enough damages to bankrupt our union, and are suing to abrogate the contract of another pilot group for the express purpose of doing more of our flying for less money.


It has nothing to do with a cookie jar, as far as I am concerned.
 

Timebuilder

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I'm weary of the fact that ALPA failed to bring the various parties, even under their own auspices, to the table to resolve their problems, and now it has to be resolved for them.

It's a little like the cases of the missing girls in Oregon and Utah. It seems to go on forever, without a conclusion one way or the other.

Is there a better way to resolve the issue of representation? I'd like to hear it. That would be something new and different.
 
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surplus1

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FlyDeltasJets said:
I can't speak for others, but I'll tell you why I'm pissed off. Your group is asking for enough damages to bankrupt our union, and are suing to abrogate the contract of another pilot group for the express purpose of doing more of our flying for less money.
I don't think you have to worry too much about the union going bankrupt. If it gets to the point where the union believes it could lose, they'll settle out of court, just as they have before in similar cases. This isn't the first time for the union and money is of little interest to the litigant, which the union knows.

Yes, the intent is to abrogate a portion of your contract. I can understand why that upsets you. However, your feelings are based on self-interest and have no relationship to the principles of the case.

The portion of your contract that you fear losing abrogates my career and my future and would cause my fellow pilots to lose millions in pay and potentially jobs. Therefore, I want that portion abrogated. That's my self-interest part of the equation.

On the principles, the litigation argues that the portion of your contract in question was bargained illegally by the union and violates the law. At the moment, that's a matter of opinion with which I agree and you disagree.

If the court finds in favor of the litigants, that portion of your contract will have been found to be illegal. It that case it should be overturned.

When you enter into a contract any portion of which violates the law or is questionable as to violation of the law, you can expect it to be challenged and possibly abrogated.

That's how the union put its hand in the cookie jar. It's also how the cookies crumble and finally, it is how justice is defined.

I believe we have a winner, you believe we don't. The courts will decide. That's not a reason to be upset, it's the American way.
 

Rvrrat

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options

At base, one could lable me a Utopian. Why? Because I was taught at an early age that people settled their affairs directly and honestly; it was a time when a person's word and handshake meant something.

No matter where one looks, there are wrongs to be righted and as many ways to go about it as there are opinions on what is right or wrong.

Sometimes the only option left while keeping an organization intact is to 'go to law'.

However, under the heading of "Build a better mousetrap", why not simply start fresh and from scratch? Ditch the games, the bickering, the bureaucracy and the expenses thereof, not to mention the effort required to fix the broken or the monumental task of overcoming the level of resentment and fustration already attained.

For example; I had financial resources set aside to fly 100 hours based on a fixed per hour rental rate. I looked at buying my own aircraft and could not justify the overall expense; I looked at a flying club, while such had advantages, it had just as many disadvantages. I found a non-profit member owned flying club. Granted, I incurred an upfront expense of buying a share of an aircraft but, it had all the advantages of private ownership, all the advantages of a regular flying club and few disadvantages. I became part of a group of like minded people and even with the up front "purchase" expense was able to fly 135 hours for the same amount of money that I had originally set aside.

Analogy: There seems to be enough of us to form our own company. One that is based on principle and is driven by ethics, sound operating and financial practices made up of people who are of like mind. Why settle for hamburger when one might dine on steak?
 

~~~^~~~

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Re: options

Rvrrat said:
However, under the heading of "Build a better mousetrap", why not simply start fresh and from scratch? Ditch the games, the bickering, the bureaucracy and the expenses thereof, not to mention the effort required to fix the broken or the monumental task of overcoming the level of resentment and fustration already attained.

Analogy: There seems to be enough of us to form our own company. One that is based on principle and is driven by ethics, sound operating and financial practices made up of people who are of like mind. Why settle for hamburger when one might dine on steak?
Not a bad idea. Obviously the Delta MEC's policy of divide and destroy anyone else performing Delta narrowbody flying has failed. Another strategy is required.

Why not grow in power the way ancient Rome did, assimilation? Make everyone a citizen of Rome and it brings folks together in a common society.

As long as ALPA allows alter ego flying the jobs, pay and productivity are going to be up to the open market. Right now the Delta pilots are the highest paid pilots on planet Earth. That gives them only one direction to go unless they stop alter ego Delta operations.

They legally can not kill Connection pilots, although they would like to. There is only one way to restore all Delta flying to Delta pilots and that is to make all pilots performing Delta flying, Delta pilots.

Read ALPA's history. The same pattern repeats over and over again. We should learn that although mergers are painful ,they are the best medicine for future strength.
 
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