Anyone else think Eagle was a mistake?

[SF3CAP]

Hey 'Stang. I've been at Eagle since '98, and am a VERY junior SF3 Captain at DFW. In September, I upgraded to ATR Captain at DFW (actually finished IOE on the 7th - phew), then in December I was displaced to the SF3. I was lucky to hold onto that CA seat, and am trying to get up to 1000 PIC as fast as I can to get out. I know lots of junior captains doing the same thing. I've been looking at all other job possibilities, including going to work for the FAA.

When I came to Eagle, it was the "place to be". Eagle and Skywest were the only non-PFT regionals out there, and that's why I came to Eagle. Boy, how things change. I try not to be too negative while at work, it makes work a nasty place to be. I love my job when i'm flying, the rest of it sucks.

Hang in there, it will get better (at least that's what I tell myself). I really hope we can work something out with the company and the APA.

 

[airstang]

I'm with you there!

Hey, tell all those guys in DFW to hurry up and get hired somewhere else! I need to get into the left seat and with 2 years at the DFW base, I think that's the place to upgrade to.

I'm not going back to the Rock!

Thanks for the post!

 

[stunsiapla]

Re: Getting a "feel for the company"

Originally posted by airstang
If you want to get a good feel for the company (AMR Corp.) Just grease up your bung hole, paint your self red, and bend over in front of an angry bull.
Nice.....

The scoop is this....


A lot of guys got hired at the various airlines that were acquired by AMR to make the "Eagle" that exists today (maybe not for long). The most senior guy has 25 years seniority. That seems hard to believe, but remember there were times not so long ago when you couldn't touch a 135 job without some serious experience. (Eagle used to be 135 operation)

The senior guy at Eagle has 32 years, but who's counting. And beside, the rest of your post is fiction so why should this be correct?

So a lot of these guys got hired with the attitude that they would not be there long, so very little concern was given to long term labor agreements... hence the signing of our contract currently 12 years from its "amendable" end.

That pretty much sums it up

This 16 year agreement pretty much froze wages except for standard industry indexed increases based on when certain other carriers increase their pilots' rates.

Yes, but you WILL get a raise.

In addition, a "flow through" provision was supposed to allow 50% of all AA pilot new hires come from top of the Eagle pilot list provided each pilot completes 24 months as RJ Captain.

A rather simplistic (not to mention incorrect) interpretation of the flow-thru agreement.

Due to the timing of the contract and the way AA conducted its hiring, less than 180 Eagle pilots ever "flowed" to AA. Without getting into the boring details, a lot of guys that might have gone elsewhere, stuck it out with the hope of just flowing through. Also the "flow through" was not offered to anyone over 50 and has completely stopped after 9-11. In fact many AA pilots (through a furlough protection agreement) who were furloughed actually flowed BACK to Eagle and are now flying Eagle jets as Captains.

Not quite sure what "timing of the contract and the way AA conducted its hiring" means? AA was hiring 100 pilots a month.
Had the flow-thru continued after 9/11/01, at the same pace. there would be 560 Eagle pilots at AA at the end of 2003. How many of these 560 pilots stood even a remote chance of getting a job at AA without the flow-thru? Don't blame it on timing or AA hiring practices. The only way you can blame this on Eagle is by suggesting that bin-Laden and AMR are somehow in co-hoots.
In fact, there 16 AA pilots that flowed-back to Eagle. Is that many? While no one likes the circumstances that caused them to be here, 16 is hardly many. If asked, I am sure they would rather be back in the cockpit at AA.

The most junior bases are of course anywhere where there are Saabs and where you can imagine not wanting to be in the Winter (Boston, New York, Chicago). You will find mostly senior Captains in the LAX, DFW Bases. While the Most Junior Captains in the system are typically on the Saab, the exception is San Juan. The most junior Captains (I think) are San Juan ATR. I served 7 months on "the Rock" as we called it. I found Puerto Rico to be very inhospitable to my "gringo" self. I could not wait to get back to the Domestic System.

I would take ORD in the winter over DFW in the summer. SJU is what YOU make of it.

So, when you can get that regional job, find a company that does not paint birds on the tail and you'll do alright.

If you or any collegues come here, don't say you weren't warned!

Make sure you warn them about the cheap D-2 charges. And don't forget the insurance. It sure is not fair to pay $10.00 for $150.00 worth of medicine. And that $20.00 co-pay for a Doctor visit is just outrageous.

I have been with Simmons/Eagle since 1983. I am not a pilot, but I work with you guys everyday. There is a reason I am still here. That being, it is a very good place to work. I find it hard to believe that, just because you are a pilot, that it is that much worse.


Corey

 

[SF3CAP]

Hey, i'll do my best to get out of your way, but I think a saab upgrade isn't likely. I'll probably be at the bottom of the reserve list until the saabs are gone out of DFW. I just hope I can hold jet CA before I get displaced to jet FO!

 

[airstang]

OUCH!

Corey,


Sorry that my post sounded so distasteful and bitter.

Please understand that I love the job, love the people, love the equipment. I, like most pilots, don't feel alive without something to bitch about. Like most workgroups at AMR, you don't have to look very far to find material. I have received a tremendous amount of help from certain people withing the company, specifically the training dept. However, when it comes to "the company" as a whole, the bottom line is that we all feel like a part number.

Perhaps my analogy about getting "greased up" was a little grotesque, but I just got my paycheck and it's kind of hard not to feel that way when you know how much your Captains make and what the big brothers at AA pull down.

Also, I just found out that another of my old Flight Instructor buddies just got hired by Alaska. It seems like my students are passing me by as Captains at other regionals. My friends are going to nationals and majors. If not for the horrible turn the industry has taken, they would have been far better than are now. I just don't see success in my future...unless I make some changes.

After I found myself in Puerto Rico, I felt like I was not "warned" about the realities of Eagle ahead of time. I made my choice to come here based on limited info and the fact that I could not afford Pay for Training.

So thank you for pointing out my inaccuracies and I hope that others who don't have the inside picture can get a more accurate glimpse.


.. and your right about one thing, the benefits are great. It's just hard to see that when you get buried under the daily "cockpit gossip."

 

[3green]

You are right the benifts are great. I Just had a baby that cost me $000. Cant say that for my friend at another company he just forkd out over $2K. There will be movement at Eagle, with over 400 pilots with AA numbers that will flow. but it doesnt look like it will be tell some time 2004. So sit tight or move on. one point to make out if you look at the Sen. list there is only 70 pilots between 10 years and 5 years. So were almost over that ten year jet CA stigma.

 

[FEDUPPILOT]

Well, all I can say is that I have beeb on the rock for 14 months since I was a newhire. (was going to jet on Oct.22) and i am going INSANE!!!! Dont get me wrong the flying is great but, everything else SU*CKS!! The fact that theres no light at the end of the tunnel just makes things worse. So, to you guys in the states I wish I was in your shoes!

WUUUUUU.......needed to vent!!

 

[browntail]

Hey Eagle guys you don't have it that bad! You could of been working at TWE like I had to. I could spend days on here telling you about that place. I think I'm getting a migraine just thinking about it. Also, what's that dull pain in my arse? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Galaxy]

eagle--waste of time?

A buddy of mine went there over 3 years ago. The same time I took off to fly skydivers and drink beer. 3 years later I am a Capt at a fractional . For him he just finally got in the jet 1 year ago and still makes dirt wages. The best thing he ever told me was he is sitting in some hub airport eating and along comes a student that he taught from intro flight to ME Comm. He is now an ATP and a jet capt and some other commuter. So I would say yea Eagle was a big mistake.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Going back to the original post, if you're only 30 and you're concerned that your dreams of flying for a major airline are going down the toilet, it sounds like you had unrealistic expectations of an airline career. In the recent past, I'm sure there were plenty of pilots that were able to reach a major by 30, but as history and current events are teaching us, that should not be considered the norm.

"I love the job, love the people, love the equipment" Then keep flying and you will reach your goal. Even if it takes another five years at Eagle, I would still consider a 25 year flying career at a major airline lucrative if that's what you're after.

I have no idea what AE is like, other than what I've read on this board. If you're already making $30-40k a year then you've weathered the storm. You're not living like a starving college student, you're in the 50 percentile of household income in the U.S. Again, it's all about your perspective and expectations.

Overall, I would say that you are not in a bad position. The hard part is behind you, just keep flying and keep applying.

 

[Ameriagle]

Eagle offers some good experiences. The chance to fly good equipment to just about anywhere in the US and Carribbean, and the chance to work with great people on a daily basis. I made the choice to come to Eagle for three reasons....they offered me flexibility in where I could live, stability (or so I thought), and the chance to get experience.

Now I am earning 3rd year jet FO pay and have flown less than 900 since joining Eagle. I have held three lines in over 2 years and have never been off of reserve flying domestic. Unfortunately I was junior in my newhire class and had no choice on equipment (ATR). Hoping to live close to home (CA) I have never gotten any closer than DFW! With the pending ASM issue at American their is no gaurentee that my job is safe despite my senority. The future is yet very uncertain here!

I do not look at the last 2 years as a complete waste of my time because I have worked with great people, learned from some real pro's, and enjoyed flying the ATR and ERJ (when I fly). It is frustrating on the other hand when I look at my contemporaries who have moved on to become captains at other regionals or are at the very least senior FO's making a livable wage. At this stage of the game, for me, I do not see a real risk in moving on. While I think the experience has enhanced me in many ways I feel like it is time to get the career back on track. I have an offer from another carrier and am waiting for my class date. Change is good!

 

[eaglefly]

Corey, you seem to imply that most of the pilots who elected to flow to AA were, or are unlikely to get hired by any major. I came to Eagle in '88 and turned down TWA in '90 and AWA in '98 and also elected not to accept the interview offer at US Airways. Why ?, because I wanted to work for UAL or AA. It is well known that AA accepted LESS new-hires from Eagle than other regionals simply because AMR was aggravating their own attrition. Attrition that they have to ultimately pay for. Between '88 and '92 (when they started furloughing), AA hired SEVERAL THOUSAND pilots , I can count the number of pilots hired from Simmons on two hands and most of those were in a group that was hired in mid '92. Other regionals did MUCH, MUCH better.

AMR hates the flow-thru because it results in attrition from the top. When I flow, it will result in 4-5 training cyles to cover the vacancies as a result of my leaving. Thats about 75-100,000 bucks - FOR ONE PILOT ! Two months after receiving my number at AA, I finally got an invitation to interview at UA, it was tough but I told them no thanks (restart probation and lose vacation accrual etc.). If only they had called 6-12 months prior.

So here I wait until things pick up. Made 90K last year and I drive 45 minutes to get to work. Di
d I make the right choice ? I'll no when i'm 60. I would now be on furlough at and US AirwaysUAL . AWA was an awful place (no more than Eagle with bigger jets) and TWA ?, well a classmate of mine who went at the same time I interviewed and turned them down was furloghed twice for a total of about four years and is now 1500 numbers junior to me on the AA list. Go figure.

 

[stunsiapla]

I certainly did not mean to imply that our guys are unhirable (sp?). Take into account the fact that since Jan. 1998 7 out of 10 pilots that have left Eagle, have been first officers. Out of the roughly 250 Eagle pilots hired by AA (not including flow-thru) since Jan '88, 70 were Captains. These numbers, plus 19 years in the industry, tell me that the majors do not hire regional Captains at the same rate that they hire first officers.
Or am I missing something here? Is the difference in attrition rates due to a certain comfort factor? That is, do our Captains stay here because a "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" per se?
You may be right about AMR hating the flow-thru. But I know a lot of Eagle management people that think it is fantastic. Your management team is a great group of people that have the pilot interests at the fore. I know this because I am one of those people, and I work with the other ones.
I hope you can excuse my lack of patience with the dissenters that we find on this board. Half of my adult life has been spent at this company and as with all things familiar, I tend to be a bit defensive when it is attacked. When I hear that ASA is the place to be and Eagle sucks and my buddy that flies once a month for Comair and is already a captain making 100k a year after 2 years there and all my friends that I know work for other regionals and they are completely utterly ecstatic and captains after being there for 1 year and they are all rich and will be able to retire as multi-millionaires at age 45 and our management lies all the time and Execjet hired all my ex-roomates who now make 100k a year flying gulfstreams and only have to work one day every other month and the flow-thru is a joke and I know guys that work for Horizon and they are all captains making 100k a year after being there for 2 weeks and most will retire next week as mutli-millionaires (hold on while I take my medicine), I tend to get defensive. Are we to believe that this is the most horrible place ever in recorded history to work. And you, Eaglefly, if you worked for Simmons, remember the 7 year SD3-60 FO's. This is light years ahead of where we were at Simmons. At least for me it is. I am truly sorry if it is not for you.
I remain, your faithful VC automaton,
Corey

 

[ACWild]

Corey,
I can understand your defensiveness as you are one of those on the other side of the fence. I believe that you over-exaggerate the complaints to discredit many of our pilots.
The simple fact is this: We complain about AMR management being liars because we have been lied to many times. For example, " the American Connection codeshare is just short term as we do not have the resources and pilots to cover the St. Louis flying."
"We have adequate staffing." Yes, thank you for junior manning me again. I know that I should be happy that I even have a 4 on, 2 off schedule, but explain that to my wife and kids.
Since you don't do overnights as management, I will understand if you can't relate.
As far as pay goes, would management set an example for the "lowly unmarketable employees" here and accept "industry average wages"? And I do mean the "regional" airline industry.
Sure, the travel benefits are great, but the pilots and FAs here can't afford to go anywhere.
I don't mean to sound bitter, because I'm really not. As I said before... It's a fun place to work, but AMR management keeps it from being a good place to work.
Maybe some of the managers are good people, but certainly not the ones who make it high up in the company.
See you at the Unity March.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Corey
Eagle is definently not as bad as some on this board have suggested. Most of our middle-management staff yourself included are true professionals and many do have "the pilots interest in mind" as well as the companies. And you are right, Eagle has come a long way although we may return to 7 year upgrades once more.
I personally enjoy my job very much. When I landed this job in 99 when PFT was prevalent elsewhere, I was jubilent. Since then other regionals have dramatically improved while eagle has stayed stagnant for pilots (pay, upgrades, etc). That is unfortunate for many of us that came here in that time and have invested alot of time, effort and money into our carreers. So I think we have a right to whine. (otherwise we just would not be AL pilots : )
I guess what is frustrating to many of us is that some managers just see us as liabilities rather then assets. AMR could learn a thing or to about employee relations...you think?