Anyone do flight plans like the feds?

[rumpletumbler]

I'm studying for the CFII and some of the questions on the written (same as the instrument) are just ludicrous. What do you do when you fly? Do you plan the climb length/time, measuring arc's and even calculating the time for the approach at the end? If you crossed the SXO vor at 1340 and the shutup intersection at 1453 after flying off the airway at a magnetic bearing of 040 degress FROM the AC NDB then back onto the airway via radar vectors while eating lunch then what time will you arrive over the stfu intersection?

 

[minitour]

when in doubt, go with "C"

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight planning

I learned to include top-of-climb in my flight planning when I went to work for ERAU. You can plan for top-of-decent/beginning of decent. I recall that rule-of-thumb was multiplying altitude times 3 to determine nm needed for the decent. The rule-of-thumb section of the board recommends multiplying altitude times three and adding 10. For approaches, a good rule-of-thumb is to add fifteen minutes to your flight time from departure to the IAF.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck with your written.

 

[HMR]

What do you do when you fly? Do you plan the climb length/time, measuring arc's and even calculating the time for the approach at the end?

ABSOLUTELY! I've lost several jobs over this. When I flew PT135 my CP would get so mad just because it took me 1 or 2 days to plan a flight. Call me "uptight" but I also order fuel in ounces.

 

[qmaster3]

I learned to include top-of-climb in my flight planning when I went to work for ERAU. You can plan for top-of-decent/beginning of decent. I recall that rule-of-thumb was multiplying altitude times 3 to determine nm needed for the decent. The rule-of-thumb section of the board recommends multiplying altitude times three and adding 10. For approaches, a good rule-of-thumb is to add fifteen minutes to your flight time from departure to the IAF.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck with your written.

I think this goes along with the rule of 3.

IAS or better GS X5=rate of descent.

 

[Lead Sled]

What do you do when you fly? Do you plan the climb length/time, measuring arc's and even calculating the time for the approach at the end?

It all depends where I'm going and what I expect to find when I get there. Personally, we use a flight planning program that is dead on accurate - coast to coast either direction within literally a minute or two and within a couple of hundred pounds on the fuel burn. (Yes, it is that accurate, I've used it for years including literally hundreds of coast to coast legs.) The program allows you to pick whatever routing you want, including DPs and STARS. Normally I always plan for an hour's fuel on landing and I always land with an hour's fuel. AS good as the program is, it only calculates "departure airport to overhead the arrival airport"; however that is more than adequate under all but the most abnormal circumstances. However, there are places where that's not enough. When you headed out to the east coast, they have a tendency to start you down early which translates into a few hundred pounds of additional burn. You've got to take into account along with whatever alternate, holding, etc. fuel that you need to carry.

'Sled

 

[HMR]

Rumple- Actually, in our dept. we do plan for all of those things. I use the same computer program as Lead Sled. He was kind enough to share all of his performance profiles for the Astra (fine tuned over years of use) with me. He takes flight planning very seriously- as we all should. On any given trip (i.e. Santa Barbara to Teterboro) I'll arrive within 0-5 minutes and 50-100 pounds of fuel from what I planned. It's that accurate. Thanks Lead!

 

[rumpletumbler]

That is wonderfull but it does me little good on the written.

 

[flyer172r]

Three words: DUATS flight planner.

Yeah, may not be much help on the written, but after the written it works really, really well

 

[jimpilot]

If god had ment pilots to flight plan he wouldn't have invented computer flight planning programs.

 

[minitour]

If god had ment pilots to flight plan he wouldn't have invented computer flight planning programs.

or dispatchers

 

[EngineOut]

Ah, jokes on you...we dispatchers use computers, too. Heh Heh Heh.

 

[minitour]

Ah, jokes on you...we dispatchers use computers, too. Heh Heh Heh.

LMFAO!

 

[ackattacker]

Ahh, but what if the computer's out? Then you'll need to produce a "manual release".

As for me, I practice my manual release procedure every day! Can't be too prepared. With practice, it only takes a few minutes. But still, generating a release is usually easier with the help of the computer.

 

[JAFI]

rumble, it is important to learn the manual way of flight planning at your stage in training. You must learn the math used in each step to better understand the planning system. It is not too important flying the traffic pattern at the local airport, but when there are lots of just trees or nothing but water under you for hours upon hours, then fuel planning becomes very important.

When I did not have a Flight Management System (FMS) I used a small wiz wheel (e6b) I kept im my pocket because as my boss said "hauling a lot of fuel cost too much money" so we were always at min fuel levels. I was always working the wheel (in bad weather) to see when I had to divert if the wx went bad at the destination. Perhaps I was crazy, but this aircraft had flamed out on the ramp (no fuel in the tanks) with the gages showing a quarter tanks. The fuel computer was bad and no one knew. And we were always at min fuel for take off....

When you get to a FMS airplane the FMS works great IF you understand the limitations of the FMS program. They can have many traps that you may not see unless you know how to do manual planning.

Knowing the system can save you.

JAFI

 

[Flyingdutchman]

when in doubt, go with "C"

Nope, when in doubt, go with the longest answer

 

[Pedro]

when in doubt, go with "C"

Actually, go with B, if it is a True Flase question, then C is out of the question!

 

[avbug]

The problem is that today, too many kids try to run before they walk. After all, computers do all the work, why should they learn the basics?

I've never had a student that didn't learn to use every chart in the book, including time to climb and descend...and yes, I require students to calculate fuel for each part.

I also teach students not to think in terms of how much fuel they'll need for the flight, or how much they can get away with putting on...but in trying to see how much they can have when they land. Big difference.

Yes, you should learn to calculate the aircraft performance. All of it.

 

[Pedro]

The problem is that today, too many kids try to run before they walk. After all, computers do all the work, why should they learn the basics?

I've never had a student that didn't learn to use every chart in the book, including time to climb and descend...and yes, I require students to calculate fuel for each part.

I also teach students not to think in terms of how much fuel they'll need for the flight, or how much they can get away with putting on...but in trying to see how much they can have when they land. Big difference.

Yes, you should learn to calculate the aircraft performance. All of it.

I agree with avbug, when I was instructing I used to teach them to calculate the fuel for every part of the flight, and to always know how much fuel they had in the tanks at all times, how much time, not how many gallons.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight planning, the way it was meant to be

I agree with avbug, when I was instructing I used to teach them to calculate the fuel for every part of the flight, and to always know how much fuel they had in the tanks at all times, how much time, not how many gallons.

I agree, with flight planning being done via E6-B. I would have no objection to using a calculator for the arithmetic.

 

[rumpletumbler]

I use an E6-B because I don't have to feed it batteries. Does anyone but me feel like their eyes are crossing when trying to line things up under the true index on the wind side? Drives me nuts.

 

[minitour]

I use an E6-B because I don't have to feed it batteries. Does anyone but me feel like their eyes are crossing when trying to line things up under the true index on the wind side? Drives me nuts.

Nah...what kills me is density altitude...lining up -3C and 2,300'PA is a b*tch

 

[Lead Sled]

What do you do when you fly? Do you plan the climb length/time, measuring arc's and even calculating the time for the approach at the end?

I must have misunderstood the question - I took it to mean how do we flight plan in the real world - in our day-to-day operations. The answer is with a computer. When conducting flight training then that's an entirely different matter. The student has to understand and be proficient doing it manually.
'Sled

 

[JediNein]

The 210s have the worst reputation for fuel exhaustion accidents.

In the Cessna Pilots Association Course, there is a flight planning exercise. Some pilots remember to look in the supplements sections for the various changes to their particular aircraft such as intercoolers, oil coolers, speed kits, STOL kits, upgraded engines, tuned exhausts, air conditioners, and other STCs that can greatly change their fuel burn. Others get that lesson when we have co-owners do the plan and they come up with different answers.

Most of the time, in flight training in flight training aircraft (C172/PA28), I am quite familiar with the aircraft and know that no matter what I do to the plane, power-wise, I have exactly 4 hours and 30 minutes of fuel. I land at 3 hours and 30 minutes.

On the 210 series, it gets very interesting. Two hours of fuel burn plus an FBO mis-fueling (very common) might mean an off-airport landing depending on the direction of the RADAR vector. If it is an unfamiliar 210 flying anywhere beyond 2 hours, you betcha I am planning the flight to the nth degree including the weight and balance for landing calculations.

The electronics are nice on the ground. During the written, do the calculations twice, three times if you like. In-flight, nothing beats the manual E6-B. No batteries, no button punching while in turbulence, and you can get several answers from one ground speed.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[wheelsup]

I'm studying for the CFII and some of the questions on the written (same as the instrument) are just ludicrous.

Chose 1:08 minutes if its available, always. Doesn't matter what the other choices are.

If 1:08 isn't in the selection of answers, choose 0:52 or 1:02, whichever appears.

If neither of those options are in the selection of answers, choose the answer that is closest to 1:30 (i.e. if 1:15, 1:25, and 1:31 are choices, answer would be 1:31).

If the FAA hasn't changed their answers for each question as of last year, those should work great and you'll never have to calculate an FAA flight plan again .

~wheelups

 

[HMR]

I must have misunderstood the question - I took it to mean how do we flight plan in the real world - in our day-to-day operations. The answer is with a computer. When conducting flight training then that's an entirely different matter. The student has to understand and be proficient doing it manually.
'Sled

Yea, what Sled said.

Jedi- Good post. I've never understood the fuel problems in the C210. I flew a T210 all over the boondocks of ID, NV, AZ and CA. Very predictable fuel burn, easy to manage (unless switching between 2 tanks is "hard"), and never ever had a "mis-fuel" because I always did a visual check.
Also, what weight and balance issues do you come across? I've only flown a couple different 210's and they were among the most W&B "friendly" planes I've seen. They're my favorite single engine A/C.

 

[JimNtexas]

You what I do when I'm tracking inboud to an NDB or VOR? None of that girlie dme or gps stuff for me!

I just turn away from the radial 45 degrees, take the time for the bearing to change 10 degrees , add the day of the month minus the phase of the moon in percent, and Bob's your uncle I have the distance to the fix in furlongs.

 

[ksu_aviator]

www.fltplan.com is great, it does the performance for you based on your aircraft type. Does not require any fuel inputs from you like duat or duats. It already knows!

 

[PGH STEEL]

www.fltplan.com Hands down. Within 1-5 min and 100-200 Lbs of fuel!!!
Cant beat it like sore weiner!!

 

[siucavflight]

Here is a good rule of thumb for the written

When the majority of the possible answers are over an hour choose the one that is farthest from the hour, when the majority of the answers are under an hour choose the one closest to the hour.

A. 1 hour 40 minutes
B. 59 minutes
C. 1 hour 10 minutes

A would be the answer


A. 1 hour 10 minutes
B. 52 minutes
C. 49 minutes

B. would be the answer


Works for almost every single one of them.