Anyone care to see my ATP breakdown??

[banned username 1]

this is wierd, somehow my post came to the top as a thread-starter.

sorry!

 

[banned username 1]

.......

 

[mcjohn]

I think ATP has gotten too expensive in the last couple of years for the amount of real flying time you get. Let's crack some numbers here. Also, consider that ground instruction at ATP is very minimal b/c they send you everything you're supposed to know 3 weeks in advance so you teach it to yourself.

O.K..... for the CFI program you pay $5995 if you have the 8 hrs PIC plus up to $1350 for your check rides. You get up to 7 hrs multi and 5 hours single for that price so 60% of the cost goes to multi and 40% goes to single (creative I know but it gets us in the ball park.)
$5995 + $1350 = $7345
60% of that is $4407/7 hours multi breaks down to $630 per hour
40% of that is $2938/5 hours single breaks down to $587 per hour

Now, if you don't have the 8 hrs PIC multi then you have to do the other course to get the time and that's $6995 + $1350 for check rides = $8345
That gives you up to 15 hours multi and 5 hours single
75% of that is $6259/15 hours multi = $417 per hour
25% of that is $2086/5 hours of single = $417 per hour.

The time that it takes to complete the checkride is part of the PIC time they alot for you so that's why I included it into the cost.


Regarding the 90 day course I decided not to go because I found out that 50 hrs of the the 190 multi they promised were FTD (simulator) time.

O.K here's the icing on the cake:
If you're using ATP ab-initio to regional airlines:
$8995 for 85 hr private pilot program (60 days)
$44995 for 200 hr airline career pilot program (90 days)
$24995 for 170 hr airline transition program (60 days)

EQUALS $78,985 for 455 TT and 240 multi PIC. In 7 months you can be an airline pilot even if you've never sat in a plane before.

You folks know anyone who has done this? Do you think it's possible for someone to be well qualified in 7 months after this kind of training?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Sure, well qualified for bankruptcy when they then go to a regional making 18K thier first year. Oh wait make that about 15K because they were furloughed 10 months into the first year. So it's off to the next regional where the same thing happens. Then they get the big break and get 2 1/2 years in and the company folds. Then it's back to year one pay. Too bad they haven't been able to pay down the debt from training yet and now they have the bonus of owing several thousand more in interest.... What a job (career left this industry years ago)

 

[NYCPilot]

If you dislike their pricing schedule don't go.

 

[CDHannah]

It sure beats the six figures plust that other major schools charge.

 

[banned username 1]

It's not only aviation

Look at the stats about undergraduate college degrees. How many people pay all of that money and actually use that particular educational discipline in their employment?

Not disputing the benefits of college majors to the indivudual or society, but when you look at it strictly from a dollars to direct requirement/benefit for the many, if not most of the jobs of the general population, there is a disconnect.

When you look at money spent to prepare a person to the minimum skill and certificate levels necessary in order to go out and look for a job in aviation, the numbers are daunting, but not that outrageous. The eyebrow-raiser is perhaps the amount of money spent in such a compacted space of time. I won't even touch on the money and effort expended for the questionable rate of return if one chooses aviation as a lifelong profession.

But to put it in perspective, pilots aren't the only ones who choose to do things that if they were "pro'd and conned" on a blank sheet of paper, wouldn't look all that smart to persue. I have a daughter who is applying to about four different universities trying to obtain one of a handful of slots as a musical theatre major. I thought trying for employment for a major airline was competitive! This is much more difficult. If she is one of the lucky ones who get accepted, we get the opportunity to spend $45k a year for four years for her to graduate and wait tables in New York as a starving actor, hoping for her big break. Now that's something that doesn't "pencil out".

But as we all know, when you have a dream, you'll do almost anything to make it happen and rationality almost always takes a back seat.

 

[mcjohn]

If she is one of the lucky ones who get accepted, we get the opportunity to spend $45k a year for four years for her to graduate and wait tables in New York as a starving actor, hoping for her big break. Now that's something that doesn't "pencil out".

But as we all know, when you have a dream, you'll do almost anything to make it happen and rationality almost always takes a back seat.

1st I'll say good luck to your daughter. She'll probably gain more life skills on that big adventure than she will be taught at the $45k a year school.

In regard to the second half of the quote, I gotta say that this is what keeps places like Gulfstream Academy and similar running strong.
Quote from the other forum:

Unfortunately the people who are having the most success in the aviation business are rating mills and PFT operators. What do the PFT folks really profit from?
A. SJS and the glam they think is associated with it
B. Foreigners
C. People who are afraid of ever becoming an instructor
D. Rich spoiled kids
F. Airlines who want to hire people that will bend over for them and take it quietly
E. All of the above

 

[Ralgha]

Do you think it's possible for someone to be well qualified in 7 months after this kind of training?

No. ATP teaches for the checkride, and not one bit more. You will not have a good handle on the knowledge after completing any of their programs, unless you are good at self study. You will not (most likely) be exposed to anything outside of the PTS.

 

[chignutsak]

No. ATP teaches for the checkride, and not one bit more. You will not have a good handle on the knowledge after completing any of their programs, unless you are good at self study. You will not (most likely) be exposed to anything outside of the PTS.

True that about the checkrides. For instance, they threw me into my CFI single addon ride with about three hours prep. Not a lot of time to learn lazys and pylons from the right seat when you've spent most of your time in Semenholes up to that point. I do like their cross country training, however. You and another wet-behind-the-ears-fresh-from-the-instrument-ride student go ferry airplanes all over the country for them. Nothing like learning about how to function in the IFR system than to go out and just do it.

 

[Airway]

I think ATP has gotten too expensive in the last couple of years for the amount of real flying time you get. Let's crack some numbers here. Also, consider that ground instruction at ATP is very minimal b/c they send you everything you're supposed to know 3 weeks in advance so you teach it to yourself.

O.K..... for the CFI program you pay $5995 if you have the 8 hrs PIC plus up to $1350 for your check rides. You get up to 7 hrs multi and 5 hours single for that price so 60% of the cost goes to multi and 40% goes to single (creative I know but it gets us in the ball park.)
$5995 + $1350 = $7345
60% of that is $4407/7 hours multi breaks down to $630 per hour
40% of that is $2938/5 hours single breaks down to $587 per hour

Now, if you don't have the 8 hrs PIC multi then you have to do the other course to get the time and that's $6995 + $1350 for check rides = $8345
That gives you up to 15 hours multi and 5 hours single
75% of that is $6259/15 hours multi = $417 per hour
25% of that is $2086/5 hours of single = $417 per hour.

The time that it takes to complete the checkride is part of the PIC time they alot for you so that's why I included it into the cost.


Regarding the 90 day course I decided not to go because I found out that 50 hrs of the the 190 multi they promised were FTD (simulator) time.

O.K here's the icing on the cake:
If you're using ATP ab-initio to regional airlines:
$8995 for 85 hr private pilot program (60 days)
$44995 for 200 hr airline career pilot program (90 days)
$24995 for 170 hr airline transition program (60 days)

EQUALS $78,985 for 455 TT and 240 multi PIC. In 7 months you can be an airline pilot even if you've never sat in a plane before.

You folks know anyone who has done this? Do you think it's possible for someone to be well qualified in 7 months after this kind of training?

You can't break the CFI program down like that because the CFI program includes a week of ALL DAY classroom. You're paying for that, too. You're also getting your CFI done in a fraction of the time. If you compare getting your three ratings at a Mom and Pop FBO and ATP, ATP will come out much cheaper. I did all my training at FBO's and then the CFI program at ATP. Def saved me some money. Granted, I had been flying for almost 5 years before that, I knew how to fly and had a good grasp on the knowledge stuff.

ATP is indeed checkride prep. Had I not had a few years of experience before that, I'd have had a tough time teaching after I got the certs. I suggest, if anyone plans on doing the program, know your stuff before you go and walk in with some experience (at LEAST a couple hundred hours). If you're in the 90 day program, unless you're pretty sharp, you will suck at instructing. 90% of the guys I went to the program with were from the 90 day program and looked and acted like highschool dropouts and were beyond ignorant. I'm talking about not-knowing-which-aileron-goes-up-or-down ignorant. I'm no Ernie Gann, but gimme a break.

That said, some of the instructors were from the 90 day program and were pretty sharp. I guess it takes a certain kind of person.

 

[Ralgha]

You can't break the CFI program down like that because the CFI program includes a week of ALL DAY classroom. You're paying for that, too. You're also getting your CFI done in a fraction of the time. If you compare getting your three ratings at a Mom and Pop FBO and ATP, ATP will come out much cheaper. I did all my training at FBO's and then the CFI program at ATP. Def saved me some money. Granted, I had been flying for almost 5 years before that, I knew how to fly and had a good grasp on the knowledge stuff.

You'll only finish faster if you don't have the motivation to do it at the same speed at the FBO. If you want to do it in a week, a good FBO will help you get it done in a week. For much less green.