Anybody else heard...?

[StaticWick]

I heard a nasty rumor a month ago from our DO at a meeting! Anybody else heard of flexiable duty times involving:

~Flight Legs~
A to B to C to B to A

Legs "A to B" and "B to A" are empty, repositioning legs, Part 91

Legs "B to C to B" are passenger, Part 135

If I use 14 hours of duty but less than 8 hours of flying between "B to C to B" I still can fly back to "A" beyond my 14 hours and I am legal to do so???

 

[JJET44]

It's always been that way. The FAA conciders repo legs as part 91 as long as you are not carrying passengers or cargo for hire.
Some companies, such as mine, still won't let you go over 14 hours regardless.

 

[StaticWick]

Thanks... I thought somebody was doing crack. Because my ex-boss is following it causing turbo prop guys to fly late hours. But, CP is going crazy trying to keep him honest.

 

[gto2002]

I have been told that the a to b leg would be considered 135 because it is before the trip the b to a is 91 since the revenue trip is over.

 

[SDCFI]

I have been told that the a to b leg would be considered 135 because it is before the trip the b to a is 91 since the revenue trip is over.

The first leg is still considered 91 and can be operated as such regulations-wise (wx mins, alternate's, etc); however the flight and duty time must be taken into consideration on the subsequent revenue legs. Since the 135 duty/rest req's only apply to revenue operations the last 91 leg can exceed any/all duty/flight time limitations. Also, the last 91 leg is still "commercial flying" and does count toward the next revenue duty/rest/flt time period. I have flown 9+ hours with a 16.5 hour duty day after a long 91 flt home. At our company all 91 legs that will exceed a 135 limitation are at the discretion of the pilot and must have the approval of management.

 

[StaticWick]

thanks everyone for their insight.

 

[cem757]

Think about this, Who is paying for those "91" repo flight? Is your company eating that cost or is the costumer paying for them? If the costumer is paying for it, isn't that a "revenue" for the company? We operate under 91 rules on the empty legs, but are very cautious about busting 14 hours even on the flight home empty. As with any fed you talk to, they all give you a different answer. So be smart about it and what your own a$$, but don't take it overboard. My thought is as long as you don't bend metal flying under 91 rules, you'll have no issues. So just be safe and smart and do what you feel is right.

 

[JJET44]

Think about this, Who is paying for those "91" repo flight? Is your company eating that cost or is the costumer paying for them? If the costumer is paying for it, isn't that a "revenue" for the company? We operate under 91 rules on the empty legs, but are very cautious about busting 14 hours even on the flight home empty. As with any fed you talk to, they all give you a different answer. So be smart about it and what your own a$$, but don't take it overboard. My thought is as long as you don't bend metal flying under 91 rules, you'll have no issues. So just be safe and smart and do what you feel is right.

Yeah,

It is sort of a gray area with the Feds. My company got a difinitive answer from our POI and he stands by the empty legs being p91 with no duty time restrictions. They understand that the repos are paid by the customer but still don't concider it as 135.
With that said my company won't let us go past 14 for safety reasons.

 

[AOBLrJet]

a good topic for me since my head is spinning with this stuff. The other day I did a 14.5 hour duty day and just to be sure I wasn't breaking any rules I asked the CP what he earliest I could come on the next day for service. He said that the ten hours of rest only apply to the ten hours of flight restriction. I was under the impression that the 10 hours of flight is a hard rule never to be broken. From what I have learned over the years after you start going over the 14 hours of duty then extra rest has to be added on, is that not the case? I really dont think that he was listening, or unerstnding, so I showed a half hour late the next day just to be sure I was off duty for ten hours. I really don't put a lot of faith in the CP and now I am wondering any imput would be great thanks

 

[JJET44]

Actually no.

Your boss is right about the rest and you shouldn't have broken the 14 hour rule.
The 14 hour rule must not be broken (under p135).
The ten hour rule can, under certian conditions, be broken (WX delays, ATC etc.)
If you go over 10 hours, you must add one hour of rest for every 1/2 hour that you go over.
I'm almost certain of this but I could be wrong!!!!!

 

[TimsKeeper]

My understading of the a to b isn't that it is a 135 leg but it is commercial flying and can not be considered in your rest time (obviously). The last leg doesn't make you illegal however your rest period can not start until that is completed and you are off duty.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

My understading of the a to b isn't that it is a 135 leg but it is commercial flying and can not be considered in your rest time (obviously). The last leg doesn't make you illegal however your rest period can not start until that is completed and you are off duty.

135.263(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to ANY duty with the certificate holder during ANY required rest period.

Pretty cut and dry. Part 91 flying does not count towards your total commercial flight time, but it can NOT be conducted during a required rest period. Are 135 operators violating this? You bet. Just research a Merlin that crashed in KC a few weeks ago. Crew started their day at KELP at 20:00, crash occured at 15:00 the next day... you do the math.
The company will probably keep their certificate or change names to do so, but the two pilots are hosed. No airline will ever touch them.

 

[b350capt]

wait wait wait, are you getting paid for this 91 leg?....YES therefore it IS commercial flight time, just like the old CFI days, 91 but commercial. A 91 leg home or during a repo counts toward your total commercial flight time and duty time. The ONLY way this is not so is if you VOLUNTEER to fly the aircraft home or the next leg part 91, at your own expense (no per diem, no duty time pay). Then you are not violating the flight time requriements or the duty requirements. But keep in mind.....this only applies if you volunteer to do the flight during your rest period, and for no compensation. FAA has ruled on this several times, but dont have the exact reference, will look it up....

P.S. Those of you doing flight instructing and part 135 flying....be VERY careful to include ALL your CFI flight time in your commercial flight time limitations under 135, yes it does count.... unless of course you're doing it for free.

 

[pilotyip]

Paid to fly=comm

If you are paid for Part 91 flying it does count toward your comm. flying time, because you are exercising the privileges of you comm. ticket. You have to count that in your 3-month, 6-month and annual totals. If you fly privately in your airplane it does not count.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

If you are paid for Part 91 flying it does count toward your comm. flying time, because you are exercising the privileges of you comm. ticket. You have to count that in your 3-month, 6-month and annual totals. If you fly privately in your airplane it does not count.

You are right. My bad.
There are many 135 operators who are trying to push crews to violate this.

 

[rice]

Yeah,

It is sort of a gray area with the Feds. My company got a difinitive answer from our POI and he stands by the empty legs being p91 with no duty time restrictions. They understand that the repos are paid by the customer but still don't concider it as 135.
With that said my company won't let us go past 14 for safety reasons.

I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with your POI's interpretation but HE/SHE is NOT the final authority on this issue. Best check FAA General Counsel's legal opinion on this one.

 

[Photoflight]

Every place is different....

Were not allowed to bust 14 hours Total duty for any reason what so ever. WX, MX, ATC delays etc.. etc.. We're suppost to foresee any delays and if we see ourselves going over 14hours duty then we have to cancel..per our POI.

And as for flying empty legs on your rest period...I've always understood that you can volunteer to do it. For example stay in a hotel on friday night or fly back fri. night for the weekend but if the company is telling you to do it ....its commercial flight time and therefore needs to be included in your total duty time and commercial flight time.

 

[pilotyip]

The company can order you to fly part 91 on a tail end ferry, it does not count for flight time or duty on the previous trip, but must be included when considering the start of rest. Crews always have the option to call Fatique and say they can not safely do the trip. Lets see over night MMHO or KELP, lets tail end ferry to KELP it is only a 1.0. ELP here I come.

 

[flipper66]

One other thing to keep in mind when flying past 14 hours of duty (i.e. on a part 91 deadhead home) is 91.13-careless or reckless operation. Although you might be legal to fly home, if you're too tired to do so then you're no longer legal. To be honest the only time you're likely to run up against this is if you screw up (i.e. accident/incident or whatever-heck, they can even get you for this one if it was during your normal 14 hours duty if they find that you weren't rested and ready for duty at the start of your duty time).