Any suggestions?

[s0ldier93]

I am strongly considering going into the air-taxi/charter business. I would start this endevour with one single engine aircraft (TC-210, . . . . Piper 6 maybe), and enough captol to operate that plane and pay a qualified pilot (or 2?) for two years. i have a few questions.

What is a fair annual salary for an on call pilot in such an operation? I was thinking at least $35K. How far off am I?

Where does most of the business in this area come from? I was considering targeting small businesses. Any other suggestions?

Does anyony out there work for a small operation like this? Might you have any suggestions?

 

[bart]

I suggest you spend a day or two reviewing Part 119 and Part 135 of the FARs to get an idea of what is involved.

 

[TZRav8r]

I think Warren Buffet said it best, "If there had been a capitalist down there at Kitty Hawk, he should have shot down Orville and saved us a lot of money."

 

[wings421]

Invest the $$$ in the stock market. Don't try to get into the 135 market with a 210 or Cherokee 6.

 

[s0ldier93]

Thank you all for your replies.

Is it that grim at the moment? I thought the 135 market was growing due to airline frustrations and other things.

bart-
Will do. I am currently getting ideas and initial organization ready.

wings421-
What would you suggest as an entry aircraft? C-4XX or King Air maybe?

 

[wings421]

The choice of aircraft is up to you. You MUST target it toward your projected client base. I would certainly have an all weather - mulit engine aircraft. Baron, Aztec, Navajo would all be good entries into that catagory. Remember, if you are doing this for passengers, there is some part of a status symbol involved in chartering an aircraft. I doubt many would want to ride in a 210. Just suggestions though, I have no idea what your business plan includes. Again, its a very tough market to be entering.

 

[s0ldier93]

wings421-
Roger that. . . . . . Thank you for that perspective. Like Jamie fox said in Collateral, "I never thought about it like that." With a full load a can see how allot of comfort/efficiency factors would go out of the window. I'll redirect my thinking a bit. Please let me know if you have any other thoughts on the subject. Aside from the costs of optaing, maintianing, and operating an aircraft, what else makes it a tough market.

I am not set in stone in this venture. I've found that in creating a business plan, allot of factors are analyzed. Most of them looked good in the rough draft, but there was no oppsing opinion. Informative flames are welcomed.

 

[414Flyer]

Insurance is going to be killer too.

 

[bart]

Here is the real question:

Do you have $100,000 to purchase a 135 Air Carrier Certificate?

OR

Do you have two years and $25,000 for a consultant to get one from the FAA?


That is why I said review the FARs. It is not as simple as getting together a business plan, clients and capital, unless that capital plan includes buying an Air Carrier Certificate. In that case, you will need to operate 2 or 3 aircraft just to break even on the fixed cost of the operation. At a minimum, you will need a Directoor of Ops, a Director of Maint and a chief pilot, and each has minimum experience requirements. I believe that for single aircraft ops, the DO and CP can be the same guy.

So the idea of buying a SE airplane and flying air taxi or something tells me that you have started the financial homework, but have not even begun the regulatory, which in the end dictates alot of the financials.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Don't use a single engine airplane for 135 ops. A Navajo would be the smallest I'd use (approx $500 - 600/hr). A King Air 90 ($650 - $900) would probably be your best bet depending on your location, clientele and bank account.



I’m a DO for a small 135 operation. We have a Lear35A, a King Air B100 and a C210. The C210 isn’t on the 135 certificate because of all the BS to get it certified (known icing, dual gen, etc.). Most corporations and individuals will not go in single engine aircraft (many also require two pilots in our King Air) for safety and insurance reasons.



Good luck. Do a lot of homework so you know what you’re getting into. Remember, it could take as many as 6 to 8 months just to get your certificate. Be prepared!

 

[s0ldier93]

bart-
Ouch. I will take those numbers into account. But, you are correct, I have not done my FAR homework yet. What I've done so far is basically sit and think about it, and do a good bit of typing. I will PM you with another question about a specific operation (when I get home).

RichardFitzwell-
Would you say that your operation gets "allot" of business?

 

[s0ldier93]

FAR homework in progress. I've read 119 and 135 and now seek further understanding. Please excuse any silly questions.

If the Director of operations has the correct qualifications, he/she can be utilized as a PIC correct?

Can, or has anyone heard of, a repair facility be used in a contract agreement for maintenance requirements? If so, can an amendment to the Certificate be granted to remove the Director of maintenance requirement? 119.41 maybe?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

If you are looking for a one airplane one pilot 135 outfit, that is easier to start. When I say easier, I use that term loosly.

I just spoke with a gentleman yesterday that owns and runs a flight school and already has an airplane to use for part 135. He has been a D.O. for a multiplane 135 outfit in a previous job and has been involved in setting up 2 different 135 certificates. He did the initial inquery with the FAA at the FSDO that would cover his operation. Their response? It will be May before they will even speak with him for the initial "135 information meeting" He explained that he had a large amount of 135 experience etc etc..... Their response? "Alot has changed in past couple of years, cannot meet with you until May"


He expects to be able to fly his first 135 trip in the plane about November of 2006.

 

[s0ldier93]

KeroseneSnorter-

Wow. Thank you for the info. So that aircraft will just sit in wait until the end od 2006? Knowing his current estimated wait time, is it shorter considering he has an aircraft that is ready to go?

You mentioned one of my current debates. It seems that starting with only one aircraft would be considerably easier than starting with 2 or 3. I'm looking into how difficult expansion would be (Hiring the correct people and getting more planes added to the certificate) once business picked up. Or would it be better to get the multi-plane work done up front.

 

[EatSleepFly]

If the Director of operations has the correct qualifications, he/she can be utilized as a PIC correct?

Correct.

Also, check your PM's for an answer to a question you had earlier in the thread.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

KeroseneSnorter-

Wow. Thank you for the info. So that aircraft will just sit in wait until the end od 2006? Knowing his current estimated wait time, is it shorter considering he has an aircraft that is ready to go?

You mentioned one of my current debates. It seems that starting with only one aircraft would be considerably easier than starting with 2 or 3. I'm looking into how difficult expansion would be (Hiring the correct people and getting more planes added to the certificate) once business picked up. Or would it be better to get the multi-plane work done up front.

Right now he is renting and instructing in the airplane, so it is making a little income.

Last time I dealt with 135 you could run one airplane with one pilot on the certificate and that eliminated a lot of the paperwork required. (some of the training manuals etc.) That has been a few years ago so things may have changed though. There is a sample 135 certificate filing that you can download from the FAA's web site that will give you an idea of what to expect. The sample or "template" is for one plane with one pilot and bare minimum IFR certification. ie. basic ifr requirements of 1 mile vis to take off and the like. we all know that to make money you really need to have more realistic IFR criteria for reduced T/O mins and the like, but that has to all be applied for on an individual basis and have the appropriate training manuals and ops specs approved to do it. Have plenty of paper availible in the printer when you print it up. (and a spare toner for the printer!!!!) it is long.

The feds also have a "quick start" cd now that you just enter your company name in and it inserts your info in all the correct places in your 135 app and op specs. Expect to have to rewrite sections of this several time even though you use the "quick start" info.

Of course you could go the route that someone else suggested and buy an already active 135 certificate. I am sure that you could find many for sale right now given the market. A lot more money but would get you up and running quicker (Notice I did not say quick! )

I have to agree with the other posters about airplane choice. Go with a twin. Baron at the minimum, but a cabin class twin would be best. Most companies will not put their people on a single engine airplane anymore. More and more of them require their people to be on a turbine aircraft as well.

Personally I think that there are some niche markets that would bring in customers for a little 135 operation with a little hustle and out of the box thinking. I would not try the standard business passenger 135 outfit in my neck of the woods, King Airs are a dime a dozen around here for charter. If I ever come across a pile of money that I feel like throwing away, I may try some of my ideas.

How do you make a small fortune in aviation?.....................

 

[s0ldier93]

How do you make a small fortune in aviation?.....................

Start with a big one right? As for aircraft choises, I'm thinking C-402/414/421. I've even seen a few turbine ones one www.aso.com.

I'll go search the FAA site for that guide. Thank you for the info.

 

[T-REX]

Stay away from the 300/400 Cessna's there's a $100K wing spar AD coming up, right?

 

[s0ldier93]

All 3xx's and 4xx's? Glad I decided against picking up that 310 for personal use.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

The 300 series is fine. They are not part of the NPRM.

All the 400's except the 421 are named in the NPRM for the AD. And it appears to be very expensive. I do not know why the 421 is not listed as being affected, perhaps a design difference in the spar. At any rate, you are still safe buying a 310 or 340..........at least for now


I would check with the feds at your FSDO before buying a turbine conversion for your 135 ops. I don't know, but I have a feeling that they will not allow an airplane on 135 that has been that heavily modified. I'm sure that some of the conversions will work with the FAA, but given the pain in the rear it is just to get a factory original airplane approved for 135 and added to your certificate, I have my doubts that many of the piston to turbine conversions will pass the FAA Maint. inspection. Pretty much unless it is certified from the factory, the feds are a little squemish about putting paying passengers on it. The only exception I can think of is the Convair 580 and 660. But I am pretty sure when Convair did the conversions, they had a new type certificate done for the airplanes. (Plus it was 40+ years ago!!)

Maybe someone else on here has come across the turbine conversion issue for 135 and can give you more info.