Any Military IPs?

[milplt]

I'm a USAF dude who just finished a tour at Whiting NAS, and the Navy is becoming as big a syllabus tracker as the USAF. If it is a day sortie, it's flown in the day and lands before sunset. If it is a night sortie, it is flown at night. Want to talk about responsibility, ask the T-34 IP's who are not Night VNAV qual'd (and not many of them are) if they can let a student on a contact sortie land after sunset, and the answer is no.

As far as getting home on a X-C, it has nothing to do with sunset and everything to do with field closure. AETC X-C recovery windows are only a few hours long (usually about 1300-1700 if you're lucky) on Sun due to field (ATC) manning - THERE ARE NO SOF's ON DUTY FOR X-C RETURNS (at least at my AETC base). Whiting X-C returns were allowed until sometime after sunset to give the option of a night VNAV on the last leg - and for no other reason.

Ive seen a lot of differences after flying for both the Navy (and I enjoyed flying for the Navy) and the USAF, and responsibility was not one of them.

 

[Kramer]

...Or when the AF guys have to call back to home base to see if it is ok to deviate on a crosscountry for WX and leave us Navy guys standing there in disbelief...."ok, have fun with that, I am going to Vegas!" ...yeah, big responsibility!

 

[vschip]

As far as getting home on a X-C, it has nothing to do with sunset and everything to do with field closure.

Trust me, the reason was they had to land before sunset, that's the reason it has stuck with me for the past 11 years. Done the Vegas divert thing, heading home to NASNI, "be home first thing in the morning" is what the CDO said the skipper said, ummm, ok...

 

[Spur]

Trust me, the reason was they had to land before sunset

Yes, and the reason behind that was probably a whole 'nuther part of the AF bureaucracy --- the RSU (runway supervisory unit). As I recall, an RSU is required for night homefield ops for T-38s (really just one dude) and they are not generally scheduled on the weekends.

Also the field probably closed at sunset due to lack of manning in the tower/radar.

 

[rainman_02]

Question from someone who has only had sandbag time in fighters...


Why, when we're dragging fighters, do they have to land before sunset? Is it one of those RSU requirements?

Not slamming any of my pilot bros...just curious and always trying to learn something.

 

[AlbieF15]

Like just about every other fighter pilot out there, I launched at 0stupidthirty (0300-0600) many times before an 8-10 hour sortie, especially flying from the states to Europe.

Noise abatement, altrav (the block of airspace for tanker and fighters), and fields being open all contributed to the timing, but the idea of "landing in the daylight" also weighed in.

Personally, I always thought staying on your normal body clock, driving across the pond, then landing after dark was easier than trying to go to sleep at noon the day prior. I HATED to whole act. I had a flightmate in a cell I was leading one night who darn near couldn't get gas and almost had to divert. He was a rock solid pilot who had no previous problems...but he not anywhere close to his "normal" state of alertness. When we talked later there were several guys in the same cell who confessed to "zoning out" "nodding off" several times during the deployment. At FedEx, this window is refered to as the "critical period", recognizing the challenges of flying when your body is at its worst. United refers to it as the "Wave of Circiadian Low" or something similar, and likewise has restrictions on how many times you can be scheduled to fly there and the required rest requirements.

When I went to become an aerospace physiologist a few years later, I learned a lot about how tough it really is to work during that period. Since our fighting force now does some much of its work at night, and we train with NVGs, etc, I cannot understand why we still have the mindset of "...must land in daylight". When teaching Human Factors classes, I would always make note of that to guys who were going on the be Squadron CCs and Ops Group Commanders, reminding them that both anecdotally (war stories from these classes) and scienfically (human factor study data) it was much tougher to try to swap your body clock around that land after dark. I know of 2 squadron commanders who told the deployment team "we ain't launchin' then..", but usually I've seen guys just accept whatever timing is offered.

I had a few pet peeves when active duty, and this was one. The other was leaving $40-50 million dollar jets out in the rain and elements every day at stateside bases. I drive an old 89 volvo...worth about $1200 blue book...but I put it in a garage at night. Then I go fly a $35-40 million dollar Eagle that has just had rain pour down the ECS intake and soak the cockpit avionics. I've watched crew chiefs sweat and get sunburned while working on them, and get rained on as well. However, both at Eglin and at Tyndall, I'm now seeing some sunshelters being installed. So...there has been some progress in one area that used to bug me...so maybe they'll fix the other one too

 

[spanky2]

It has been said notes, warning and cautions are written in somebody else's blood. When dealing with USAF student pilots, you find many rules, especially when they are solo or away from the home base. Having been a T-38 RSU controller many moons ago, I can tell you that a RSU controller is required for solo flights and the controller's PRIMARY j-o-b is monitoring the solo students. They have a tendency to forget the landing gear, get lost, wrong way on initial. Once had to talk "Sayud Mohammed" down to the rwy cause he could not land and the only other option was ejection. You are asking, why the he!! was he airborne? Well, he had been in UPT for about 2 years, was on triple SMS, had several volumes of gradebooks, had to solo eventually, and if he was sent back home before graduating he would be "disgraced" and probably beheaded .. or forced to wear panties on his noggin.

 

[milplt]

On fighter drags, the fighters have to land during daylight due to the 2 ADG (or whatever the Air Delivery Group is called now) regulations - every tanker pilot should be familiar with some of these regulations. That rule pertains to whatever service the fighters belong to if the USAF is dragging them. I also forgot to ask how many CNATRA crews have had to sit grounded in clear blue skies because their dept pt, route, or dest was touched by a SIGMET. And don't talk about it getting hatched out, because 9 times out of 10 it won't happen except for home station ops.

 

[talondriver]

Re: Re: No Responsibility at all

I wish I could share the look on my face the day the SOF declared an emergency for me.

As a SOF I've declared an IFE for someone. It shouldn't be a big deal for the pilot. It's all about moving the appropriate people on the ground. I'd be more concerned if a SOF tried to override me if I declared an emergency.
You guys need to get off your macho trip about who's service is better. I'm working with Navy guys right now and all I see is the same bullsh*t different uniform.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Re: Re: No Responsibility at all

.
You guys need to get off your macho trip about who's service is better. I'm working with Navy guys right now and all I see is the same bullsh*t different uniform.

It's not about who's service is better. Neither are. Each are better at different things, and the difference in philosophy between the two when it comes to automony in operations is nearly incomparable. Funny though, whenver something goes wrong, it seems the Air Force is more interested in there being a head on a platter, rather than just being satisfied that enough was learned about an incident to prevent recurrance. Having lived both lives, there are betters and worses about both in every categtory. I could list a whole lotta stuff I found to be done smarter in the Air Force than the Navy, but where's the fun in that? It's too much fun seeing who's feathers ruffle when a little needling begins. Actually, overall, I'd rather be in AETC than CNATRA when it comes to the bottom line in quality of cross-country flying life. That doesn't change the fact that at every turn, there's a weenie trying to fly my jet from the ground. I see it more as same uniform (flight suit), different bull$hit.

Sorry to the dude who made the original post. Every Friday afternoon, I used to think "man, they are gonna love us this evening in San Antonio (or wherever the gaggle was heading)". I used to always do my best to try and bracket stuff up so we could get the most work with the least amount of congestion. I always greatly appreciated those controllers who appreciated our limited fuel, but knew we needed approaches, rather than the folks who would just put us all in the penalty box and get us all one to a full-stop. You could just tell which controllers were the most professional. To them...thanks a bunch.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Re: Re: No Responsibility at all

As a SOF I've declared an IFE for someone.

See, I wasn't kidding. It's not his fault though, that's the culture. My buddy once described the SOF tour as "climbing the stairs to the tower and wearing the noose around my neck for another four hours".

 

[talondriver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: No Responsibility at all

See, I wasn't kidding. It's not his fault though, that's the culture. My buddy once described the SOF tour as "climbing the stairs to the tower and wearing the noose around my neck for another four hours".

Honestly, I spend most of my SOF tours dealing with flying status changes and thunderstorms.

Keep in mind I'm SOFin' at a SUPT base. I'm there to help (that's what I like to think anyways) when I can. Nothing would make me happier than go through a tour with no IFEs.
BUT, If there is an IFE I expect a pilot have a plan, fly the jet and land it. I would have a problem with someone trying to fly my jet from the tower or duty desk. If I declare an IFE for a guy, it shouldn't change the way he/she flies an airplane...it better not. All it does is moves the fire trucks and possibly gives traffic priority. Is that considered bad?

Regarding XCs: They're too much work unless your CT

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Responsibility at all

All it does is moves the fire trucks and possibly gives traffic priority. Is that considered bad?

Thanks for the thought, BUT...
It's not desired when I don't need or want any priority and it's 115 degrees, and some bozo in a silver suit makes me stop and I have to wait an eternity in hell to taxi because the world must come to an end because I was an emergency. Not to mention the explanation of the "incident" to everyone when there was no "incident" until some other bozo decided to start flying my jet. And thanks for the extra paperwork.

Regarding XCs: They're too much work unless your CT

The number one reason why AETC cross-country life is better than CNATRA. Try going to Vegas on 3 days' notice with four jets and no students in the Navy. Forget it.

 

[Maj]

Back when I went through flight training and would go on the road for training, we would usually come ripping into the carrier break (well, as much as you could be 'ripping' in a T-2 or T-45) wherever we went. We'd figure out all those pesky approaches we needed to log for the 'X' when we got back to Kingsville. I remember one salty Marine Harrier good old boy IP who used this philosophy: (read with extreme southern accent while scratching crotch in exaggerated manner) "It's about 4- or 5-hundred miles to Pensacola, we'll come into the break faster'n that. If the ball's in the middle it's a precision approach, if it's not in the middle it's a non-precision approach."
**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** I miss those days!

 

[talondriver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Responsibility at all

Thanks for the thought, BUT...
It's not desired when I don't need or want any priority and it's 115 degrees, and some bozo in a silver suit makes me stop and I have to wait an eternity in hell to taxi because the world must come to an end because I was an emergency. Not to mention the explanation of the "incident" to everyone when there was no "incident" until some other bozo decided to start flying my jet. And thanks for the extra paperwork.

Chances are...if you don't need it, you won't get it. Like I said, I would prefer you fly your jet and NOT declare. I on that rare occasion when RAPCON calls and says a solo is coming back with excessive EGT but decided to use the engine and to come up initial, something's not right and I'll help the dude out. But for you, knock yourself out.