Any mil guys ever resign from a major airline furloughed or not?

[Foties]

I'll keep it as short as possible....

I left a GS-13 civil service guard job, for a legacy airline and am almost done with year one. Yeah I know year one is tough and to be honest it has been no big deal, but I am seriously thinking I made a mistake with my career choice. Everyone I fly with has been awesome (minus 1 or 2 freaks) but I feel like people are just hanging on to recover the pre 9/11 pilot lifestyles..

Why are some airlines recovering / doing well?

Minus cargo guys, and some low cost carriers, the rest of the industry has taken concessions to save/make money for their companies. They have given up an amazing lifestyle that I think will never come back. Morale is horrible at many places. Who knows maybe even the Chinese will be doing our jobs for even more pennies on the dollar some day.

It kills me to think of already being gone most weekends, missing important dates, missing holidays, and being a slave to the company month to month in hopes of maybe making 200K a year some day.

I know people say "It beats workin for a livin", but I guess I am curious why?. I am thinking about resigning what I have, becoming a military sim instructor and still flying in the guard. I could make about 110K a year right now if I made the switch and do what I am missing out on maybe for years to come at the airline like:

Working Monday - Thurs

Home every night

Coaching the kids sports teams

Able to commit to the church softball team

Start a business/ investing in real estate

Hunt, play golf, and go to SEC football games

Have job security

just to name a few...

So now the question?? Has any mil guys resigned after a furlough or just straight up to do something else?

Are you happy with the decision?

What have you done?

Do you regret any decisions you have made?

 

[stonewall]

I'm a Guard guy on MLA from FDX. Obviously, my situation is different than yours. However, I think I can safely say that if many of my Guard bros currently on MLA from legacy airlines had the choice you have, they'd take it.

The life you described sounds pretty nice. I think I'd jump on the ART job. I don't know how old you are, but the ART's in our squadron have a pretty good life. Sure, the money may not top out at the high end someday, but six figures is nothing to scoff at and the perks you highlighted sound really good. Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[bssthound]

Three guys here, at Keesler, right off the top o' my melon, without really concentrating. Pretty much lifestyle stuff, like you mentioned. The pay gap isn't that big and, aside from deployments/storm season, home most nights. Another thing unique to our situation is that it affords more time for home repair. Almost everyone down here is still rebuilding from Katrina. Tough to find competent help; most guys are doin' it themselves.

 

[MarineGrunt]

(minor hijack)

What are most of the legacies stance on mil leave for a technician/AGR job? I've been told that Delta for example, does not allow mil leave for a tech job although there have been execptions since 9/11 due to furloughs...

Any others?

 

[tmac3333]

Foties --
What above just taking mil leave in the short term to get past the 1st couple of years? In other words, take 2-3 years of mil leave, if you can, enjoy the predictable schedule short term, then reevaluate in a couple of years, see where you would be at with the company or if your outlook has changed. MarineGrunt, ART and AGR I think are different animals. I know of someone in our unit who also worked for CAL and several who worked for DAL who did Mil leave for AGR jobs in my reserve unit. I think it's more difficult to get approved for an ART job, but I think it's airline or even individual dependent.

TMAC

 

[MsFan]

I have a buddy who's an ART who's looking at having to go back to United. I asked him why he doesn't just take a mil leave of absence. He said he couldn't do that because technically an ART is a civilian position, even if you're wearing a uniform and flying military aircraft. No mil leave unless you're on long term active duty orders. This was 6 months ago or so, and I haven't talked to him about it since so I don't know what he did. I think an AGR position is different, but I'm not sure.

Maybe United's policy is different, or my buddy could be incorrect in his understanding of the policy. After that day talking to him, it sounded like his choice was resign from UAL, or quit being an ART. No mil leave option.

 

[Foties]

You are right an ART/civil service jobs are not acceptable for mil leave at my company, so taking mil leave is just not that easy. I have already done 2 years AD for the current war and am basically timed out for the time being unless I get an AGR job which is very rare.

To add to that the sim instructor job I am describing is a contractor job (CAE)and has nothing to do with active duty and civil service.

By no means am I here to knock guys that love the airlines but I personally think it is god awful boring. When the stuff hits the fans we definitely make our $$ but there is no challenge 99% of the time. I know sim instructing would be god awful boring at times as well but my point is even with some seniority, you never have 100% control of your life. I worked my butt off as a guard technician, but I also had way more fun. As a very competitive and active person I can't even commit to a mens softball/baseball team for years to come due to my unreliable schedule.

I have a buddy that quit United at age 45, became a fireman and couldn't be happier. I have also heard a few stories of guys that started businesses while furloughed that won't go back as well.

I just wanna hear if there are any more guys that haven't gone back / resigned.

 

[HoursHore]

I've written rec's for guys trying to go the other way, ART to Airline guy. The ART gig seems pretty sweet to me, home every night, good pay, but it seems the politics and day to day office drudgery is more than some can handle.

I like my position as a traditional, above the BS of the squadron, yet the benefits of the reserves.

Just realize the weekends and holidays that you have to work don't last forever. Run the numbers and see where you come out ahead. It may be the ART/ Sim operator side.

Also, remember, any job becomes mind numbingly boring after a few months. At least with the airlines it can change with new equipment, routes, etc. (It can also change for the worse though.)

 

[holmie]

I am an AGR in the Army Guard that was furloughed in 02. Got my recall last fall and went on mil leave. I have five years to make my final decision about going back. It is a tough one for me because I would take a pay cut and have to commute along with the crappy schedules. I work Tues-Friday so life is pretty cush but does have its bad days of typical military BS that you don't even have to think about at the majors. It will be hard to walk away from either position but i will be faced with just that issue down the road. Good luck to you and a tough decision.

 

[Mooseflyer]

I'm hoping to bail on my LCC job in favor of an ART gig shortly - just waiting on the paperwork to go through. I fell for the old mantra "take the first job offered", which turned out to be a mistake. At least at your legacy job you'll have some flexibility regarding equip/schedules down the road, if you elect to stay. Sounds like you really hate missing softball, holidays, etc. though. I think being gone 1/2 the month is just the nature of the beast, even when you're senior, at most of todays pax carriers. Being gone doesn't really bother me, but a 3 day trip is hardly even worth packing for IMO (and the following 2 off isn't worth unpacking, either). I'm more of a 12-14 on kind of guy, and an LCC will never have that available.

Funny you mention the firefighter career (I have an application in at my town's dept. as well). My firefighter buddy has a better QOL than anyone I know, and when I recently asked him about his job, he directed me to the application/info website. It was there I found out that, in my town at least, upon finishing "firefighter school" a guy fresh out of HIGH SCHOOL on day one, makes the same $$$ on a per day basis as an airline captain at my LCC! No $hit!

You wouldn't be able to do MLOA with your sim job, but how about a Personal LOA? With todays min staffing you probably don't stand much chance, but you'll never know if you don't ask. If approved, it may give you some time to try out the sim job to see if it's for you. I'd say finish probation (sounds like you're close), and ask the question.

Regarding career earnings: consider time value of money - how long will it take to make $110k/year at your new legacy? Future compensation is anyone's guess, so it's a tough prediction to make.

What's your family's take on your options?

Good luck with whatever you decide.

PS - hey Magnum, when are you guys going to start hiring again anyway?

 

[satpak77]

Interesting thread...

Good thread. I think in this post 9/11 environment, we all realize that any pilot job that pays $100,000 a year, with benefits, a retirement package, and (somewhat) predictable days off, is rare indeed. Stable flying jobs just don't exist, if they ever really did...

Absent getting hired at FDX or UPS, any pax carrier is a dice roll these days, yes, even SWA. So the other options are land a federal govt job or try to get on with a solid Fortune 500 department (but Enron was a Fortune 500 company too...).

 

[RedDogC130]

The grass is not always a different color on the other side. I could not deal with the BS at the squadron on a dialy basis. If your looking for a quick fix or instant gratification then mabye you should quit. This job is way too easy for me to go to a ART job. I guess it depends on who you work of also. Remember this industry is a marathon not a sprint.

 

[Foties]

You guys are right full time guard and reserve sucks the life out of you as well. Do 1 drill weekend a guard trip the next weekend and you have just worked 25 days straight. Below are a few examples of why I am thinking what I'm thinking:

#1
I have a buddy that made a decision to go to work with CAE as a sim instructor, bypass the airlines, and fly for the guard part time. Sure he works nine to five, but it is a joke. He teaches a class or does a 4 hour sim, the rest of the time he is working in his real estate investing business. So he makes 110K a year and is acquiring a multi family property portfolio that will cash flow a ton of $$ some day. To me that could exceed anything you could make at a risky legacy, and you have soo much more control.

#2
Every single furloughed airline guy in my guard unit says they are scared to go back. Everyone says they hate the guard BS as well but it is obviously better than the airline or they would have not defered their recall.

#3
I have personally talked to three pilots at airlines, for 18, 10, and 9 years. Each of them said if they had to do it all over again they would not have gone the airline way. They are now stuck and too far invested to start over at another career.

 

[satpak77]

also observe that you are going to get different perspectives from different people. The guy at SWA who is "living the dream" is going to sing a different tune than the 737 pilot at US Airways who is "living a nightmare".

So in the end, do what is best for you, and your family. Intake all the opinions, information, from all sources, crunch it down, digest it, and make a decision that way.

Because in the end, nobody, not Kit Darby, not this message board, nobody knows your personal/family situation nor do they know what is best for them.

FYI

 

[ExAF]

Go Now

I'd have to look more into the details, but if you were able to live where you wanted and all other things being equal, I would probably quit my legacy and go with the sim job and fly with the guard. The bennies you list are definitely something to consider. Kid's ages would definitely factor into that equation. I know of quite a few that have quit and not regretted it....yet. Don't know if they ever will. Job security is big for me and that would tip the scale towards quitting the legacy in your case. My opinion has definitely been jaded by 2 furloughs already though. Your mileage may vary. Good luck in your decision.

 

[NewmanF16]

QOL is everything, IMHO. I have 16+ years of active service, the last 5 as an AGR, and I'm going to part time status. The reserve job sucked the life out of me and my family. I'll finish my 20 in part time status, and I'm going to work for an aircraft manufacturer where I will have more time for my kids and have fun at work again.

There is not exactly job security in the guard/reserve or defense industry, either, today. My unit shut down and displaced 500+ people. I've seen sim operator contracts change hands every three years or so, although usually the jobs stay, your employer just changes.

I'm saying all of this not to be the wet towel, but to piggyback on another comment above. Life is a marathon, so make sure your looking far down the road. If the lifestyle of a legacy captain (notice I didn't say pay) is worth the short term sacrifice, then seniority is everything and you need to stay put, if not, go for CAE, but don't expect it to be the last job you ever have.

QOL, not $$ is driving fighter pilots out of the AF in droves. Guys are being crushed at work--and not from deployments. Airline schedules are actually a pretty good break and a huge improvement in QOL for most. YMMV. Good Luck!

 

[bagasticks]

I think newman hit it right on. . . . .Quality of Life. . . if you enjoy all of those things you listed, and they are more important to you than perhaps (and I stress perhaps) 200k a year. . .maybe. . .someday. . Than you should definately go for the 9-5 gig.

I have always been traditional and have never played the airline gig (always been corporate). I would'nt trade the football coaching, softball, deer hunting, drag racing or anything else my family and I enjoy for any amount of money. You only get one go at this gig, no pressure right? ?

 

[Pistlpetet]

If you are going to pull the plug on your airline job. Why don't you give them some bogus call to active duty orders. Keeps the door open.

I have one friend who has done that for four years while he worked different contracts around the world. Now after he made a lot of money he is back flying for that airline.

Another friend who has never even been in the military was put on mil leave by the airline that furloughed just because he was flying as a GOV contractor OCONUS. Now he does not have to go back until he wants to.

If you ain't cheatin you ain't trying.

 

[NewmanF16]

If you are going to pull the plug on your airline job. Why don't you give them some bogus call to active duty orders.

It's that going to jail thing that would dissuade me...(besides the obvious morale implications).

 

[KCPilot]

Just watch out for any future BRACs. My unit is to close next fall. As an ART Officer my opitions are 1. To go where the company tells me (you only get one choice/chance) or not have a job or 2. Find a new job on my own. Well I went with #2 and will be leaving the ART program at the end of this week for the airlines.

I miss the QOL I had 2+ years ago before the BRAC and I'm hoping I'll get it back in the future. If not, maybe 5 years from now I'll stock the shelves at Home Depot!