Any AWA pilots thinkind bout the 190?

[johnsonrod]

When will the first AWA/USAirways E190s come on line? How many are expected before the end of 2006?

 

[JetMonkey]

When will the first AWA/USAirways E190s come on line? How many are expected before the end of 2006?

Sometime in the fall, and I believe 3 by years end.

 

[MK82Man]

More Thoughts

ALGFLY -- good post on the compensation end. What I think you left out was: if you are on three year pay or later as a West FO, the tax bite (min 25% for most of us) and the ALPA bite (they take more when you make more) of your approx $500 a month raise (85 hr West FO average vs 77 hr East EMB RESERVE Captain) makes it about a $375 a month raise. It would be even smaller if you have more seniority. Nobody knows how many from each side will bid for it and I'm guessing young West FOs will be on Reserve. With the seniority list still TBD, it is a real mess to figure out where you would be in terms of domicile seniority. I'm not sure that's worth it if you can't commute easy to PHL (like drive). Everytime I'm in long line to leave PHL it is always the same massive delay, I agree with the posters who say a PHL commute might be real tough. If you ended up on Reserve you could easily chew up your $350 raise. Since every FO at West is at least on 2 year pay, those are the guys who would benifit most. No West FO is on probation.

TWADUDE -- where did you hear that the US East Contract would apply? To me, this is a really fundamental issue. I've not heard squat about it. IF you are under the AWA CBA Contract 2004 you are simply operating East equipment under a bridge training program on the East certificate until the companies combine under one certificate -- right ?? I'm still governed by the West CBA. See what I mean, a real mess. We will need some "iron clad" info on whose CBA is in effect. Can't have a West pilot saying that doesn't meet my West contract requirements and the schedulers then calling in an East reserve or any thing like that .... so that remains TBD in my book.

Just because West gets slots, nothing has been said about where we will fall in terms of domicile bidding / vacation / seniority. With that still an open book (and I don't think that will change; can't really expect to know until the list arbitration takes effect next summer), only West guys who live East coast and want to gamble some might go for it. One other significant issue is that you will be PHL domiciled and could be frozen out of PHX or LAS when the lists are merged, IE, could only bid back based on where you fall in the combined list next summer. If large numbers of East guys want to move West, you could be in for a long wait if they are above you on the seniority list. The no bump/flush might prevent you from coming back West for a good while.

It's a tough decision with so little concrete info.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Correct me if I'm wrong, however, I believe the East furloghees can pass on the right seat in the 190 indefinitely. Then I'm not too sure how many passes to Boeing or Airbus.

 

[Bubba Dog]

Correct me if I'm wrong, however, I believe the East furloghees can pass on the right seat in the 190 indefinitely. Then I'm not too sure how many passes to Boeing or Airbus.

Can pass 190 indefinitely.

Can pass Boeing/Airbus until everyone is called on the furlough list. Then start going back up the list in inverse order and have to make a decision then.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWADUDE -- where did you hear that the US East Contract would apply? To me, this is a really fundamental issue. I've not heard squat about it. IF you are under the AWA CBA Contract 2004 you are simply operating East equipment under a bridge training program on the East certificate until the companies combine under one certificate -- right ?? I'm still governed by the West CBA. See what I mean, a real mess. We will need some "iron clad" info on whose CBA is in effect.

I'm assuming. How can such an operation run with different pilots on different contracts? I spoke with an MEC guy on Friday who seemed to think it could work. I don't. Regardless, we should know more by the end of the week with the arbitration.

 

[Itsallsogood]

"Can pass 190 indefinitely" does that include the left seat?

 

[LearLove]

"Can pass 190 indefinitely" does that include the left seat?

As far as I understand an APL guy can pass on the right seat of the 190 indefinitely but once he/she is offered the left seat of the 190 if they don't take it he/she is off the list for good.

 

[Swaayze]

I would certainly suspect that recalls will be completed to the right seat of the 73/AB before a recall would have a shot at the left seat of the 190. Am I wrong? How long before they get to the point of working back up the list for the final (73/AB) recall, 2 years? 5 years? The unlimited bypass and ability for on-property (recalls or even newhires who have expired seat locks) pilots to get first shot at the 73/AB seats makes figuring this out a real crapshoot IMO.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I would certainly suspect that recalls will be completed to the right seat of the 73/AB before a recall would have a shot at the left seat of the 190. Am I wrong? How long before they get to the point of working back up the list for the final (73/AB) recall, 2 years? 5 years? The unlimited bypass and ability for on-property (recalls or even new hires who have expired seat locks) pilots to get first shot at the 73/AB seats makes figuring this out a real crapshoot IMO.

First of all it depends on what 1500+ furloughees decide when the phone rings. It would be almost impossible to try to predict a time schedule or outcome. But what the heck , I will take some wild guesses.

I will say it will be unlikely any furloughees will be offered a 190 left seat as the East 18 year F/O's are tired of the right seat and QOL issues being on reserve your entire career and also where the bases might be.Don't forget the west F/O's will take quite a few seats as well if things are in their favor.

As far as working back up the list just depends on attrition and growth. A lot of retirements will be happening for years to come and opportunity growth is probably in the works. My guess is sometime in 2009 all folks will have to make up their minds one way or another.

On another note I think you will not have to hire of the street for 190 F/O's for a variety of reasons for some time.
:beer:

 

[TWA Dude]

Bid reward announced: eight (8) newhires (recalls) this fall: four A320 PHX and four A320 LAS.

New vacancy bid announced for E190: numbers TBD based on arbitration decision.

 

[Bubba Dog]

Thanks TWA Dude for that information,that is definitely a step in the right direction! What time frame does this west bid cover?

 

[TWA Dude]

Training dates for recalls have yet to be announced but they previously said overall training would start next month. E190 training will also start in September.

 

[Bubba Dog]

Thanks TWADude,do you expect anymore bids on the West side prior to the end of the year? There should be one coming out soon on the East side.

 

[two leg commute]

There should be periodic bids for the 190, (depending on the arbitration outcome), as they come on line. Also we are expecting another bid prior to the years end to cover forecasted 2007 flying, we were told it should be significant, who knows? . Also the company is looking for more airframes for lift to Hawaii, and South America, we'll see? Good luck to all, any movement, as long as it's in the right direction, is good movement.

How's MKE treating you ?

 

[linecheck]

This is certainly great news to hear.

 

[Green]

There should be periodic bids for the 190, (depending on the arbitration outcome), as they come on line. Also we are expecting another bid prior to the years end to cover forecasted 2007 flying, we were told it should be significant, who knows? . Also the company is looking for more airframes for lift to Hawaii, and South America, we'll see? Good luck to all, any movement, as long as it's in the right direction, is good movement.

How's MKE treating you ?

Where did you get your info. I heard we just lost a couple 757's to leaseholders and we are trying to replace those. It doesn't seem like this company is planning any significant growth in the near term. Just shifting flying here and there and buying 190's while sporadically parking old 320's and 737's.

If Parker was serious about growth then he would be hiring/recalling significant numbers right now. Think of how many retirements the combined airline has had just since the merger was announced and we've recalled 55 pilots??? Now are negotiating committee is rumored to be negotiating givebacks like 8:30 minimum rest which would equate to fewer pilots required. We could be looking at stagnation. Hey at least Parker cashed out $9 million in stock and it only represents less than 40% of his equity in the company. Instead of the I MAKE US FLY campaign we should be saying I MAKE MANAGEMENT RICH....

 

[TWA Dude]

I present without comment this message from the AWA MEC regarding the E190 arbitration:

Our proposal was a 50/50 split of the CA and FO slots. A one-for-one seniority for bidding schedules (West, East, West, East) and protection for unfilled slots in the unlikely event a furlough would happen between now and the new contract/seniority list. The East’s case was based on the premise that we are not entitled to any of the slots (they also maintained that a date-of-hire seniority system would preclude any of us from being able to hold an E-190 slot), but in the spirit of cooperation they will give us 10 CA and 10 FO EMB-190 slots after the integration is finalized. The arbitration took two full days of testimony and presentations. We feel our case was very compelling, but given the nature of arbitrations, it is hard to pinpoint what the final ruing will be.

 

[Lampshade]

I'm curious on who will be bidding the EMB190 from the West. Commute to PHL one of the most delay prone airports in the country( think winter), work under the US east contract most likely, make barely more than mainline FO pay, fly commuter schedules LGA-PHL 6 times. You gotta be from back East or have a hard on for 4 bars.

 

[Green]

for those on second year pay it is much more than "barely more than fo pay." $60 vs $82/hr plus you get one more type and more pic time in order to help get hired at a decent paying carrier like SWA/FedEx/UPS.

 

[two leg commute]

You gotta be from back East or have a hard on for 4 bars.

Just my opinion but I feel there are quite a few first officers on the west who would fit that description. If I remember correctly during our push for CASS over 50% of our pilots commuted, and some of them have to commute from east of the mississippi (there are four in my crash pad). There are a tremendous amount of variables in choosing to bid the 190 or not, but seat lock, work rules and pay I assume are near the top. Word is the arbitrators ruling will be announced hopefully by the end of this week, but next week at the latest.

Where did you get your info. I heard we just lost a couple 757's to leaseholders and we are trying to replace those. It doesn't seem like this company is planning any significant growth in the near term. Just shifting flying here and there and buying 190's while sporadically parking old 320's and 737's.

I got the information about another bid, supposedly in November for 2007 flying, from the union email concerning the bid that just closed on the 14th. Recieved a few weeks ago....... I have no idea on growth, the increase in lift to Hawaii and South America was referenced in the same email as well, and this was prior to the leaseholders taking three 757's from the east. Time will tell, but the real mystery is where will any new airframes come from, if they come?

Only a few sources:

1. From the manufactures............. It is my understanding the majority of the deliveries over the next year are spoken for mostly by the leasing companies. So get in line and pay top dollar.

2. From the used aircraft market........ The three 75's being taken back by the leaseholds, supposedly to be moved to the Asian market where they command top dollar, shows how tight the used aircraft market is. It appears you would be hard pressed to find any significant lift in the used market without selling your first born.

3. From consolidation....... I would think that with Delta and Norhwest in bankruptcy, you could easily purchase either airline for the price of a few new 777's. Then after cutting out all overlap flying, you could place those extra aircraft in new, i.e. growth markets. Sounds easy enough, but the thought of three seperate airlines, combining lists, operating certificates, facilities......... the list goes on and on and on.......................

It would be nice to be a fly of DP's wall, time will tell, good luck to everyone

 

[Lampshade]

for those on second year pay it is much more than "barely more than fo pay." $60 vs $82/hr plus you get one more type and more pic time in order to help get hired at a decent paying carrier like SWA/FedEx/UPS.

Do you really think its going that jr.

 

[Green]

Do you really think its going that jr.

No I don't. I was just responding to the talk that AWA fo's wouldn't be interested in 190 captain slots. I bet there are quite a few awa fo's that would be very interested in those slots.

 

[Lampshade]

I think we are only talking about maybe 20-30 CA spots for the 06-07 time frame. There will be enough east coast guys so that it won't go too jr. I think less than 50 % of our guys commute and most from the western part of the US.

 

[Lampshade]

As far as the pay goes third year Fo pay in Jan 07 will be $68hr, EMB190 CA $82hr. The real difference is min guarantee 77 for AWA FO's/ 72 for US east. The scenerio is, will a line holding AWA FO bid to reserve EMB190 CA the math as follows: AWA FO $68x85(line average)=$5780+$500 perdiem=$6280 US EMB190 CA $82x72(reserve line)=$5904+$300 perdiem=$6204 If you live in an AWA domicle now and have to commute to philly subtract $300-$400 for crash pad expenses while on reserve. (Also there maybe other compenstation items in the US east contract that I am not aware of the may +/- to this amount) Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a no brainer for guys based in phx/las unless they know they can hold a line in phl(know one knows at this time). Bottom line stay an FO make more money, now thats sad.

 

[Green]

Unfortuanately I heard from a rep that we probably aren't going to 'fix' the 190 rates in this contract. He said that since it wouldn't affect any AWA pilots it wasn't a priority and the D scale wages will remain in place. Hopefully he has no idea what he's talking about. What a terrible attitude 'since it won't affect me screw the future new hires.' Might as well pull the ladder up behind us and let the future newbies pound sand.

On another note, why the heck aren't we picketing out west?????! I hope once the merger integration is complete we hand over negotiations to the east side guys becuase we seem a bit timid over here. The company is worth over 5 billion, making $300 million/quarter, and we are offering 8:30 reduced rest periods???? Insanity....

 

[Lampshade]

Yeah the 190 rates iz whatz da iz, don't expect any major changes.

 

[Green]

Yeah the 190 rates iz whatz da iz, don't expect any major changes.

why not??? I'm not saying you are responsible in any way but we seem to have this defeatist attitude on the west side that things won't ever get better, we'll never get paid like SWA, etc. etc. Despite the rhetoric from Parker these are NOT growth aircraft. We have been parking a few airplanes here and a few there. The result is going to be captains at a major carrier making 80k/year. Of course it's good we got them on property but we need to fix those rates now, not ten years down the road.

There is no rational reason why we can't afford/don't deserve to get paid like SWA. We now work for a company with over 3 billion in the bank which is making 300 million per quarter. We have some of the highest paid management in the industry yet our pilots are some of the lowest paid. Thank god the east side guys are tired of this and have begun the informational picketing early.

We don't need a 10% raise. We need something more along the lines of 40-50% just to catch up with our fellow pilots at SWA who will most likely leave us in the dust with their next raise. It's high time we stand up, hold our heads high, and get paid like professionals...We are going to have to fight for it as Parker is no pushover....My .02

 

[Lampshade]

why not??? I'm not saying you are responsible in any way but we seem to have this defeatist attitude on the west side that things won't ever get better, we'll never get paid like SWA, etc. etc. Despite the rhetoric from Parker these are NOT growth aircraft. We have been parking a few airplanes here and a few there. The result is going to be captains at a major carrier making 80k/year. Of course it's good we got them on property but we need to fix those rates now, not ten years down the road.

There is no rational reason why we can't afford/don't deserve to get paid like SWA. We now work for a company with over 3 billion in the bank which is making 300 million per quarter. We have some of the highest paid management in the industry yet our pilots are some of the lowest paid. Thank god the east side guys are tired of this and have begun the informational picketing early.

We don't need a 10% raise. We need something more along the lines of 40-50% just to catch up with our fellow pilots at SWA who will most likely leave us in the dust with their next raise. It's high time we stand up, hold our heads high, and get paid like professionals...We are going to have to fight for it as Parker is no pushover....My .02

Green dude chill, I’m just saying that they got those rates voted in a few months ago (by a large majority, I voted yes) to change them would be great, but I think the die is cast. The rates are what they are because we needed to get them on property. Don't be confused by the mainline flying tag line, you will be paid like a commuter, fly trips like commuter and be respected by the mainline guys like a commuter... EMB's are job protection/furlough fodder. On your other point about raises we are getting them without question, how much is to be decided. Also I wouldn't be putting USair guys on a pedestal for being tough, they voted yes for where they are at so the blame has to go to them (never saw a concession they didn’t like). They want to correct their mistakes and make up their losses by getting a few dollars from the company (that’s good) and have you Green take a career concession (that’s bad) so they all can be captains again. Don’t lose sight of this.

 

[Green]

Why chill? Now that we have the planes on property lets fix the rates. If Parker tries to redistribute them to express we can shut the airline down. Like it or not we have a d scale at mainline with those wages. I voted yes as well to get them on the property but I don't think we should accept substandard pay and workrules just because Parker says he "needs it."

Obviously flightinfo is not the place to fight our battles but i think it's time to light a fire under the feet of the average AWA line pilot. If we don't win with this contract add ten more years to your present age and that might be when you finally get paid fairly. I don't want to wait ten years to "get em next time."