Any AWA pilots thinkind bout the 190?

[ALGFLYR]

Was just wondering if any America West pilots are considering the 190. The 190 arbitration is about a week away. What ever the outcome, obviousily some of the slots will be open to AWA pilots. Just assuming they are split 50/50, half of the CA slots would be available to AWA pilots. Most likely the initial aircraft will be bases in PHL. While I doubt any current CA's will take these positions, Are there a lot of FO's that are willing to go to PHL? It should be a pay raise... On the East side, it is thought the 190 CA positions will go to current Airbus/737 FO's. That will open up AB/737 FO slots to be filled by furloughed pilots. The 190 FO positions will be filled by re-called furloughees. I would imagine some of the AWA CA slots will be taken by AWA FO's with the FO slots all being bypassed thus being filled again by furloughed pilots. Any thoughts?

 

[xanderman]

not sure

It's pretty tough to say how this will pan out. I have heard a number of ideas on the line here at AWA. Honestly I really think the big factor will be where the company does base the aircraft. If in fact it is PHL (that's what I hear) then I am not convinced you will see much in the way of AWA F/O movement to that a/c. Maybe east-coast commuters will bid for the 190 but I am not too sure just how many east-coast commuters we have... In addition to this, the ruling of the arbitrator will greatly effect the outcome as well. We'll just have to see.
Andy

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm considering it but ultimately QOL issues will prevail. I commute from MKE and two mainline flights per day to PHX is easier than four CRJ flights to PHL due to reliability and typical PHL issues. Plus, the current USAirways contract will be in effect on the 190's so the schedules will be poopy. In a perfect world the PHL-MKE flights will be 190's and I'll be all over that bi-atch. Of course, with the announcement of 30 E175's going to Republic that's probably all MKE will see.

 

[n757st]

I'm considering it but ultimately QOL issues will prevail. I commute from MKE and two mainline flights per day to PHX is easier than four CRJ flights to PHL due to reliability and typical PHL issues. Plus, the current USAirways contract will be in effect on the 190's so the schedules will be poopy. In a perfect world the PHL-MKE flights will be 190's and I'll be all over that bi-atch. Of course, with the announcement of 30 E175's going to Republic that's probably all MKE will see.

Just a warning, but MKE-PHL as it stands now (with the CRJ operation) would be a very tough commute for a mainline pilot. The only reason being the flights are generally pretty full and there are tons of Air Wisconsin commuters on the route, flying on Air Wisconsin airplanes, thus getting priority boarding. Flights are full enough that we have flight attendants often buying ID-90's on midwest to get home. Of course with the republic announcement eveything could change, but as it is I would be weary of a PHL commute from MKE.

 

[TWA Dude]

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll add that to my list of reasons to stay in PHX.

 

[5150]

I've been based in PIT, PHL, BWI, CLT, and DCA. Commuted to all of them from the midwest. PHL was by far the most frustrating commute.

 

[Bubba Dog]

TWA Dude,when will the next AWA bid come out and do you expect to see any vacancies that could possibly be filled by furloughees?

Thanks,
Bubba Dog

 

[TWA Dude]

It keeps getting pushed back but we're now anticipating a 22-captain upgrade bid in August. Last word is a like number of recalls to AWA sometime this fall.

 

[m80drvr]

I'm thinking about it but my commute will be longer that TWA dude so who knows. I'm not a good commuter in fact I have moved to every base I've been sent too. It all depends on the seat lock and the schedules. I'm pretty low on the list so it probably will not get to me anyway, and for every guy senior to me that takes it is one more (more or less) that they have to hire behind me. So hopefully I will get a better line if I stay put.

I think we have enough guys living east of the mississippi that will take it even if the pay is a wash. It's better the rein in hell than serve in heven.

 

[ALGFLYR]

I think we have enough guys living east of the mississippi that will take it even if the pay is a wash.

I don't know about the West, but for an East FO to take a 190 CA seat, it will be about a $6.00/hr pay raise. Of course all the East FO's are top of scale. I would imagine the FO's on the West that would take the position won't be top of scale.

 

[Bubba Dog]

It keeps getting pushed back but we're now anticipating a 22-captain upgrade bid in August. Last word is a like number of recalls to AWA sometime this fall.

Thanks TWA Dude for the info. If you get anything more solid would you mind passing it along as I know there are several folks who watch this board for that type of info. A lot of the U furloughees are locked out of the ALPA U message board because they are with other ALPA carriers.

Thanks,
Bubba Dog

 

[Green]

It's pretty tough to say how this will pan out. I have heard a number of ideas on the line here at AWA. Honestly I really think the big factor will be where the company does base the aircraft. If in fact it is PHL (that's what I hear) then I am not convinced you will see much in the way of AWA F/O movement to that a/c. Maybe east-coast commuters will bid for the 190 but I am not too sure just how many east-coast commuters we have... In addition to this, the ruling of the arbitrator will greatly effect the outcome as well. We'll just have to see.
Andy

I don't think the west side will have any problems finding more than enough fo's willing to take the upgrade. A few hundred hours in the left seat and a type on the 190 could look good on the resume with the very likely scenario that the junior AWA pilots get hosed in the seniority integration.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I totally disagree; I really doubt there will be many fo's willing to take the upgrade. I'm not so sure we're going to be hosed in the seniority integration either. Things ain't great, but they're not awful enough to want to try and use a 190 type to get a new job at.... where? Jet Blue? Republic?

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'm considering it but ultimately QOL issues will prevail. I commute from MKE and two mainline flights per day to PHX is easier than four CRJ flights to PHL due to reliability and typical PHL issues. Plus, the current USAirways contract will be in effect on the 190's so the schedules will be poopy. In a perfect world the PHL-MKE flights will be 190's and I'll be all over that bi-atch. Of course, with the announcement of 30 E175's going to Republic that's probably all MKE will see.

Why are they buying 175's with 86 seats for Republic Holdings to operate when we are getting 90 seat versiions of what is essentialy the same airplane? And doesn't this violate the current AWA Scope with regards to A/C gross weight? Somehow, I don't think this announcement bodes well for the combined pilot group going forward.Watch for Parker to play one pilot group off of the other in future negotiations.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

It keeps getting pushed back but we're now anticipating a 22-captain upgrade bid in August. Last word is a like number of recalls to AWA sometime this fall.

Where did you hear 22? Do you know if they will be doing secondary bids along with this?


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Just a warning, but MKE-PHL as it stands now (with the CRJ operation) would be a very tough commute for a mainline pilot. The only reason being the flights are generally pretty full and there are tons of Air Wisconsin commuters on the route, flying on Air Wisconsin airplanes, thus getting priority boarding. Flights are full enough that we have flight attendants often buying ID-90's on midwest to get home. Of course with the republic announcement eveything could change, but as it is I would be weary of a PHL commute from MKE.

...or from anywhere, for that matter!!



PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'm thinking about it but my commute will be longer that TWA dude so who knows. I'm not a good commuter in fact I have moved to every base I've been sent too. It all depends on the seat lock and the schedules. I'm pretty low on the list so it probably will not get to me anyway, and for every guy senior to me that takes it is one more (more or less) that they have to hire behind me. So hopefully I will get a better line if I stay put.

I think we have enough guys living east of the mississippi that will take it even if the pay is a wash. It's better the rein in hell than serve in heven.

Don't be so sure. I would have to do an 88hr pay credit line as a Capt,just to make what I am making right now as an F/O . I would have to work up to the 92 hr pay cap for a $5300/yr pay raise. The money certainly isn't there,that's for sure. The only way I might consider it is if I could hold a line right from the start and not have to do reserve. Right now,with the arbitration scheduled for August,it's still to early to tell...


PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

Why are they buying 175's with 86 seats for Republic Holdings to operate when we are getting 90 seat versiions of what is essentialy the same airplane?

Because they can. Also don't forget that the 190s will have first class but Republic's won't.

And doesn't this violate the current AWA Scope with regards to A/C gross weight?

Off the top of my head I recall that Mesa hadn't used up all the 86-seat planes that our scope allows. It's probably not a scope violation.

Somehow, I don't think this announcement bodes well for the combined pilot group going forward.Watch for Parker to play one pilot group off of the other in future negotiations.

That goes without saying. But Parker has also said he would always put a mainline plane on a route that would be profitable with it. We'll see.

Where did you hear 22? Do you know if they will be doing secondary bids along with this?

From JR at last week's conference call. At that point he still hadn't received the 15-day notice for the bid so the exact number isn't for sure. I would presume any upgrade bid would include a secondary but I'm no expert on such things.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Why are they buying 175's with 86 seats for Republic Holdings to operate when we are getting 90 seat versiions of what is essentialy the same airplane? And doesn't this violate the current AWA Scope with regards to A/C gross weight?

PHXFLYR

The current scope at AWA was modified by the transition agreement. The limit is now 93 aircraft with up to 88 seats (or 90 seats if no first class) and 90,000# GTOW.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The current scope at AWA was modified by the transition agreement. The limit is now 93 aircraft with up to 88 seats (or 90 seats if no first class) and 90,000# GTOW.

Ok....so do you know what the GW of the 175 is?

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Because they can. Also don't forget that the 190s will have first class but Republic's won't. Off the top of my head I recall that Mesa hadn't used up all the 86-seat planes that our scope allows. It's probably not a scope violation.That goes without saying. But Parker has also said he would always put a mainline plane on a route that would be profitable with it. We'll see.From JR at last week's conference call. At that point he still hadn't received the 15-day notice for the bid so the exact number isn't for sure. I would presume any upgrade bid would include a secondary but I'm no expert on such things.

Thanks for the information,TWA Dude.

PHXFLYR

 

[ALGFLYR]

Don't be so sure. I would have to do an 88hr pay credit line as a Capt,just to make what I am making right now as an F/O . I would have to work up to the 92 hr pay cap for a $5300/yr pay raise. The money certainly isn't there,that's for sure. The only way I might consider it is if I could hold a line right from the start and not have to do reserve. Right now,with the arbitration scheduled for August,it's still to early to tell...


PHXFLYR

The 190 will pay much better than AWA FO payscales. Have you seen them? It really depends what your longevity is. If you have less than 5 years, the pay increase is big, it tapers off above 5 years though...

AWA FO Pay versus 190 CA rates:

1st year FO - 39.14
1st year CA - 78.57
pay increase - 39.43

2nd year FO - 61.41
2nd year CA - 80.36
pay increase - 18.95

3rd year FO - 68.36
3rd year CA - 82.14
pay increase - 13.78

5th year FO - 82.66
5th year CA - 85.82
pay increase - 3.16

10 year FO - 88.90
10 year CA - 94.74
pay increase - 5.84

So around 5 years, it may not be the best move. But for anyone with less than that, it may sway them. They get a block (lineholder), and can drive on the ground If the seatlock is only a year, they could easily switch back to bigger equipment approaching 5 years, and by then, they may be able to hold a line if they were previousily on reserve... We'll see... soon.

I wouldn't expect may senior FO block holders to take it unless they live East of the Mississippi, which is why I proposed the original question...

 

[ALGFLYR]

Ok....so do you know what the GW of the 175 is?

PHXFLYR

MTOW of 170 is 82,000#
MTOW of 175 is 85,517#

 

[PHXFLYR]

MTOW of 170 is 82,000#
MTOW of 175 is 85,517#

Thanks for the info..

Phxflyr

 

[TWA Dude]

AWA Vacancy Bid info from our MEC:

The distribution is as follows: 22 PHX A320 Captains, 2 B757 Captains, 2 LAS A320 Captains, and 9 LAS A320 First Officers. Additionally, the company is looking to displace 20 B737 First Officers, although it is anticipated that more than 20 B737 First Officers will likely bid into primary and secondary back fill A320 and B757 openings. The company will publish the bid on August 4, and with it a mock bid, so you can go and update your standing bid right now to get an idea of where you will stand in the mock bid. NO pilot will be furloughed or displaced into an E190 as a result of this bid!

The bid closes on August 14, with the first class start projected to be September 11. It is likely that if some First Officer vacancies go unfilled (potentially in LAS), that under the Transition Agreement, the company will allocate those vacancies to East pilots for their upcoming permanent bid.

 

[Green]

Why are they buying 175's with 86 seats for Republic Holdings to operate when we are getting 90 seat versiions of what is essentialy the same airplane? And doesn't this violate the current AWA Scope with regards to A/C gross weight? Somehow, I don't think this announcement bodes well for the combined pilot group going forward.Watch for Parker to play one pilot group off of the other in future negotiations.

PHXFLYR

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I would imagine the company could use a combination of 175's/190's/andcrj900's to threaten replacing the 737 fleet if we get in heated contract talks. They give the company leverage in possibly forcing us to accept a smallish raise despite the huge profitiblity of newco.

 

[Groucho]

That's exactly what Jerry Glass has up his sleeve.

 

[Green]

The sad thing is that a maneuver like that would just sabotage the company. We need to be growing this airline into a worldwide player instead of nickel and diming the employees to death.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ahhh but the nickels and dimes Mr. Glass finds everywhere, ends up totaling 300+million eventually. Alpa needs to find an answer to Glass. I believe he's consulting for DAL against the comair f/a's now too.

 

[Bubba Dog]

AWA Vacancy Bid info from our MEC:

The distribution is as follows: 22 PHX A320 Captains, 2 B757 Captains, 2 LAS A320 Captains, and 9 LAS A320 First Officers. Additionally, the company is looking to displace 20 B737 First Officers, although it is anticipated that more than 20 B737 First Officers will likely bid into primary and secondary back fill A320 and B757 openings. The company will publish the bid on August 4, and with it a mock bid, so you can go and update your standing bid right now to get an idea of where you will stand in the mock bid. NO pilot will be furloughed or displaced into an E190 as a result of this bid!

The bid closes on August 14, with the first class start projected to be September 11. It is likely that if some First Officer vacancies go unfilled (potentially in LAS), that under the Transition Agreement, the company will allocate those vacancies to East pilots for their upcoming permanent bid.

That is great news TWA Dude! Thanks for the update and keep the information coming on possible recalls to the West side.