Anvantair Santo talks about taking marketshare

[jonjuan]

http://video.forbes.com/fvn/cmo/avantair-ceo-steven-santo?partner=yahootix

 

[AftCG182]

A very tasteful interview given by Mr. Santo. Thanks for the heads-up JJ... pretty sure that I would have otherwise missed it!

 

[JungleJett]

Wait until the market comes back. Glad to see someone doing well...but I think you will find ops normal when the market rebounds.

 

[hangarrat]

Wait until the market comes back. Glad to see someone doing well...but I think you will find ops normal when the market rebounds.

My bet is we will do even better during the market recovery. just my .02

 

[jtf]

I would personally choose the Avanti over just about any light jet- fast, lots of room inside, and economical, but then again I know a little about airplanes and I'm just a pilot who could never afford it in the first place. It isn't easy getting past stereotypes, misinformation, lies, peer pressure to fly on jets, etc.... If the customers can be convinced to try the product I think it will sell itself well. It is just tricky to get them to try in the first place. I have no idea if it will do as well or better when everything is going well for the ecomony, but good luck.

 

[brokeflyer]

well it comes down to what you wanna do with it. In this economy he wasnt lying when he said people want value. Even rich people. A P180 from BOS to TEB compared to beechjet you wouldnt even notice a diffrence in time, but you would notice a diffrence in price. But going from bostom to LA you would want a jet. It depends on the mission. And some people are just so wealthy they dont care. One of my last flights I flew a very famous actor who said he would never ever fly on a prop again, and we flew him from teb-pit....economicly that woulda worked well in a prop, but he didnt care. The mission.

 

[glasspilot]

Lot's of people fly props and say, "I'll never do THAT again". But then they fly a Piaggio and reconsider. I've even had owners guests get onboard on a dark ramp and when we arrive are shocked on the lighted ramp that they just flew a prop.

Point is, I'm not worried about people who say they'll never fly props, cause eventually one of their friends are gonna give them a ride on us and then we got 'em.

 

[jonjuan]

A P180 from BOS to TEB compared to beechjet you wouldnt even notice a diffrence in time, but you would notice a diffrence in price.

You will most certainly a difference in time when compared to a LR40/45, 60, or Hawker800. The P180, NYC to FLA is typically scheduled at 350-370 (on flightaware) versus the others scheduled at 440+. That's 20% difference which translates to 20% more in per NM price for the P180.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VNR172
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VNR160
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EJA878P
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/LXJ443

370 kts on anything over 2 hours is SLOW.

 

[JungleJett]

It will also boil down to the service provided by the frac.

Personally, think the Avanti is a cool airplane but like the ceo said, it is a 'niche" market that serves a small group of flyers. People equate jets with "modern" regardless of the truth. Everyone has their reasons for airplanes. I spoke to one owner that said he chose the G200 because of the cargo capacity of the airplane! I think as we ALL grow, the choices offered will drive the market as much as the cost. Also remember that there is the "ego" factor.

 

[johnsonrod]

The market to buy "cheap" aircraft like the Piaggio or the Phenom 100 is much larger than the market focused on "expensive" aircraft like Gulfstreams or Challengers. Avantair is positioned very well in the lower segment of the market which is very large. That said, many people who formerly bought in the mid-range (i.e., Lear 45s, Citation XLS and Hawkers) either have less resources now (thanks to Obama and his upcoming tax increases) or have reconsidered their previous excesses and want something cheaper. The good thing about the Piaggio is that you don't sacrifice too much on performance or comfort vs. the mid-range aircraft on short-to-medium haul flights. The P180 is just as comfortable as the Hawker 800XP. I agree that it is a little slower on the NY-FL route, but the comfort and quiet interior probably make the extra time more tolerable. Plus, the P180 has excellent ramp presence and that really appeals to some people... IMO, Avantair is very well positioned during the recession as well as for the rebound.

I really hope the CEO at Avantair focuses hard on maintaining/improving customer service to accomodate this growth - I agree that customer service will be critical for both growth and current client retention.

Beyond Avantair, both Executive Airshares (Phenom 100) and even Flight Options (Phenom 300) should also be well positioned in terms of solid products in this recession. The Phenom 300 at FLOPS will arrive in December and it should be pretty competitive against the Beechjet, CJ3, Lear 40XR and the Citation Ultra/Encore/XL. See this link:

http://www.flightoptions.com/phenom-300-comparison.html

Unfortunately, FLOPS has a tarnished customer service reputation that will need a lot of fixing to ensure success (in addition to unfair labor practices with its pilots). Still, I would think the Phenom 100/300 should sell well into the eventual market rebound.

 

[brokeflyer]

Lot's of people fly props and say, "I'll never do THAT again". But then they fly a Piaggio and reconsider. I've even had owners guests get onboard on a dark ramp and when we arrive are shocked on the lighted ramp that they just flew a prop.

Point is, I'm not worried about people who say they'll never fly props, cause eventually one of their friends are gonna give them a ride on us and then we got 'em.

yes i know that, but what im saying is it depends on your mission. Taking a P180 from TEB-SAN isnt really viable. I've flown many owners in the falcon from bos-teb and it's a friggin waste.

 

[brokeflyer]

You will most certainly a difference in time when compared to a LR40/45, 60, or Hawker800. The P180, NYC to FLA is typically scheduled at 350-370 (on flightaware) versus the others scheduled at 440+. That's 20% difference which translates to 20% more in per NM price for the P180.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VNR172
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VNR160
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EJA878P
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/LXJ443

370 kts on anything over 2 hours is SLOW.

yes but i was refeing to a shorter trip. NY-FLA the p180 would lose that battle. But IAD-TEB or something short, where jets can't get up high enough to get fast it is cheaper for a prop to do it.

But yes I agree, 370 kts is super slow to florida.

 

[Geronimo4497]

What is the typical fuel burn on a flight from NYC to South Florida in the above mentioned jets? The Piaggio will burn anywhere from 2000-2300 lbs.

 

[glasspilot]

You will most certainly a difference in time when compared to a LR40/45, 60, or Hawker800. The P180, NYC to FLA is typically scheduled at 350-370 (on flightaware) versus the others scheduled at 440+. That's 20% difference which translates to 20% more in per NM price for the P180.

370 kts on anything over 2 hours is SLOW.

That is not true. It would be if the operating costs were the same, but they are not.

Using your numbers, on a two hour flight the:

Piaggio goes 700 nm.
"Others" travel 880 in the same two hours.

Piaggio burn: 1,100 ish
"Others" burn: 2,500 ish

So in two hours the "others" go 21% further but burn 66% more.


If gas is $5.00 a gallon thats:

Piaggio: $820 total or $1.17 per mile
"Others" $1,865 total or $2.12 per mile


On a per hour or per mile basis the Piaggio is less expensive.

 

[brokeflyer]

like I said it comes down to the mission you want to do. If you are going from te East coast to west coast it is cheaper to fly a jet. If you a going from boston to teterboro then a prop would be cheaper.

 

[CRJFlyer]

I hope we all do well sooner rather than later...

I saw on Avantair website that the range is about half way across country..in 4 hrs.. Is that accurate??

Assuming it is, then it would take roughly 8 hrs to go all the way..+ the fuel stop.. So more like 9 hrs..

If that's accurate, then I think customers are more willing to take a "X" for 4hrs all the way, no stops..again the mission will determine customer needs...

 

[glasspilot]

Just for giggles I threw a flight plan into fltplan.com for a Piaggio going from KTEB to KLAX. (Notice how that's West bound to show worst case?)

Anyway, of course it needs a fuel stop so I just picked MKC off the top of my head. There may be a better one for route of flight, but close enough. I did not file direct, I selected the "canned routes" and arrivals on fltplan.com.

Here's what I got:

TEB to MKC: 3:13 / 2,016 lbs
MKC to LAX: 4:16 / 2,310 lbs

Total is 7:20 flight time and 4,326 lbs of fuel.

Sure, mission length is a determining factor if people will be able to utilize a Piaggio. So is the amount of pax and bags you need to bring. But for the cost, the Piaggio fills a big niche.

And the statement that it is CHEAPER in a jet is not true. Show me a jet that does the same TEB to LAX for LESS money / gas. Don't forget to add 8 crew meals to the cost too! (jk)

 

[Willy21]

The only way the jet is cheaper is when time becomes money. Then we are back in the what mission are you looking to complete. Day or ASAP trip = time is money. Vacation = you have options.

 

[gunfyter]

Its cheaper and Quicker to take Continental from EWR to LAX... than to bust your ass in a Piaggio to LA from TEB.

Now if you are Bill Gates ... and you take 8 hrs to get to LA instead of 4 hrs in a X. What is 4 hrs of bill gates time worth? Figure that cost along with the cost of the 8 crew meals....

 

[glasspilot]

Absolutely time is money. I was simply talking about actual costs of long legs and pointing out the Piaggio costs less. There were several posts that were directly saying a jet is cheaper on longer legs, and that is not true.

The last two post were the first to bring up the cost of time and I agree. If it makes sense to pay more to make up the 3 hours then by all means spring for the jet.

The Piaggio will never compete with a X. Nobody is arguing that it will. It only competes with a Hawker in cabin size, not speed. But the smaller jets have a very hard time justifying they're marginaly better speed with their greatly higher cost. And that is where Avantair is taking market share, mid-size business jet catagory. Not G550's and Citation X's.

 

[gunfyter]

I think the Piaggio is a great airplane.... Would love to fly it. On shorter trips, not much time is saved on a jet vs a TP. Also i rather land a TP on a contaminated runway than a X.

 

[172driver]

The Piaggio will never compete with a X. Nobody is arguing that it will. It only competes with a Hawker in cabin size, not speed. But the smaller jets have a very hard time justifying they're marginaly better speed with their greatly higher cost. And that is where Avantair is taking market share, mid-size business jet catagory. Not G550's and Citation X's.

Competes with a Hawker in cabin size??? Maybe you're talking about a "Hawker" 400? A couple of your pilots gave me a tour of the Piaggio. I thought it was very nice but certainly nowhere close to a Hawker 800. The cabin was much closer to Beechjet/Ultra size and I shudder to imagine being in that cockpit for more than an hour or two.

 

[glasspilot]

Okay look. Let's use things like units of measurement and numbers and stay away from things like ego, fuzzy memory and SJS.

The Piaggio cabin is 5 foot 8 inches tall. That's a fact and can be confirmed with a tape measure.

The Beechjet 400A is listed as 4' 9"
The Ultra is listed as 4' 10"

No way on Gods earth the Piaggio reminds you of those two as they are just shy of a FOOT shorter.

The Hawker 800 is listed as 5' 9". That would be one inch more than the Piaggio. See how that competes in cabin size? One inch. Not the 11 inches shorter you compared it to.


Here is a link to compare some cabin sizes. Remeber the Piaggio is 5' 8" and see where it fits.

Cabin Comparison Charts


"The cabin was much closer to Beechjet/Ultra size..."

sheesh... head in hand shaking.

 

[LRplt]

Near the same width and height, but almost 8 feet shorter lengthwise than the Hawker.

 

[brokeflyer]

Okay look. Let's use things like units of measurement and numbers and stay away from things like ego, fuzzy memory and SJS.

The Piaggio cabin is 5 foot 8 inches tall. That's a fact and can be confirmed with a tape measure.

The Beechjet 400A is listed as 4' 9"
The Ultra is listed as 4' 10"

No way on Gods earth the Piaggio reminds you of those two as they are just shy of a FOOT shorter.

The Hawker 800 is listed as 5' 9". That would be one inch more than the Piaggio. See how that competes in cabin size? One inch. Not the 11 inches shorter you compared it to.


Here is a link to compare some cabin sizes. Remeber the Piaggio is 5' 8" and see where it fits.

Cabin Comparison Charts


"The cabin was much closer to Beechjet/Ultra size..."

sheesh... head in hand shaking.

are you trying to sell us all a share?

 

[glasspilot]

Wow, never thought of that...

Would you guys consider it? Guys are always complaining about the airlines...Avantair could be just the ticket!

 

[gunfyter]

I noticed lately, Avantair seems to have more planes in the sky relative to the size of their fleet when compared to the other Fracs when I occasionally check on flight aware....

Are your personal flying hours increased, maintained, or decreased any this year compared to previous years?

 

[jonjuan]

I noticed lately, Avantair seems to have more planes in the sky relative to the size of their fleet when compared to the other Fracs when I occasionally check on flight aware....

Are your personal flying hours increased, maintained, or decreased any this year compared to previous years?

Sounds like a ton of deadhead. When's then next Q earnings?

 

[172driver]

Okay look. Let's use things like units of measurement and numbers and stay away from things like ego, fuzzy memory and SJS.

The Piaggio cabin is 5 foot 8 inches tall. That's a fact and can be confirmed with a tape measure.

The Beechjet 400A is listed as 4' 9"
The Ultra is listed as 4' 10"

No way on Gods earth the Piaggio reminds you of those two as they are just shy of a FOOT shorter.

The Hawker 800 is listed as 5' 9". That would be one inch more than the Piaggio. See how that competes in cabin size? One inch. Not the 11 inches shorter you compared it to.


Here is a link to compare some cabin sizes. Remeber the Piaggio is 5' 8" and see where it fits.

Cabin Comparison Charts


"The cabin was much closer to Beechjet/Ultra size..."

sheesh... head in hand shaking.

So, according to your numbers, the Ultra has a taller cabin than the Beechjet (wrong) and length of the Piaggio cabin is irrelevant? I think I'll just go ahead and stick with how it felt.

I do think the Piaggio is a sweet turboprop. Performance, speed, economy are terrific for a turboprop. But it is still driven by propellers, which definitely limits its market. The Q400 is an awesome turboprop too, but you still hear snide comments from the majority of the pax boarding it...and those are from the general public who can't afford to choose.

 

[Dingo221]

And Props are for boats!