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Anti-gunners....chew on this

hyper

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For those against guns in the cockpit, here's something to think about. The next time you go out into the public, take a look around. I'll bet you'll see more than a few people in the course of the day that are all packin' and you don't even know it. Believe me, the environment out there is alot more unstable than in a cockpit. You have $hit-ton better odds at getting shot with a gun in mcdonalds than being in a situation in a jet. That's what you should be worrying about.

I have a CWP and am responsible, legal and stable. I'll bet that out of all the general public that packs, I'm in the minority. But if you're ever riding on my bus and things escalate to a point where my gun is needed, you'll change your tune.........rest assured.
 

FL000

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Unless you are one who actually works at McDonald's, task saturation is going to be slightly higher in a cockpit than gunning down someone while ordering a happy meal.

FL000--gun toter, but not in the cockpit
 

hyper

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My point was you have a better chance at getting shot by a nutcase at a mcdonalds than being in a terrorist situation in a jet.....

Gun toter.....where I may need it.
 

bigr

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Captain John Oganowski and First Officer Tom McGinnis sure got their task saturated.
 

hyper

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Bottom line is, the only time you will need it is when the cockpit has been penetrated. Now your choices are to defend yourself with some very cumbersome fighting in close quarters (yea right), give up and sit in the back while they repeat history, get shot down, or defend with sidearms (or some form of weaponry-I'll take my Glock please-) and,yes, maybe even still go down. But you'll be going down with a fighting chance.
 

FL000

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Just for the record, I'm not against legislation allowing guns in the cockpit. I just don't thing I'll personally ever pack one. But I learned long ago to never say never.
 

EagleRJ

Are we there yet?
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Go to http://www.alliedpilots.org and check out the APA's demonstration of why stun guns have no place in the cockpit. The demonstration was filmed with the assistance of former Special Forces personnel, and it's a dramatic illustration of just how great the need is for guns in the cockpit.
 

Tri-holer

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Ok, I'm sold.

Just make sure that we have weapons that are reliable, effective, and sufficient to the task (ie, not a 38 special with 6 rounds but more like a 9mm with 14 rounds and hy-shok ammo).

I much preferred the second scenario.
 

kilomike

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Last line of defense

As much as I support reasonable gun-control measures, I do feel that there is a need for a last line of defense in the cockpit should some terrorists penetrate the cockpit. It could save lives. I gave this issue alot of thought and was initially against arming pilots but I looked into it more, and realized that I'd rather risk the loss of one person vs. a plane-load of people being shot down by an F16. Also, the idea of having keys, and also giving the pilots the choice would work well since there are some pilots who would not use the gun. But if it was me and my butt you can bet I'd use it to save my life and the lives on board.
 

bobbysamd

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Guns

Don't forget training. Make sure that crews get the best weapons training available. Perhaps make requalification on the range part of currency.

I don't know the nuts and bolts of the bill, but it would be wise to placard airport public areas, boarding areas and the cabin that entry into the cockpit without authorization is barred by law, that crews are trained and armed and will shoot to kill if necessary.
 

Acestick

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We give the pilots access to the flight controls, and now we lock them in there so if they WANTED to bring down the plane they could, and nobody would stop them even if they tried. We also have crash axes in the cockpit, yet we still take away their nail files.

People don't realize that their lives are in the hands of the pilots whether they admit it or not...

So why are people saying that giving guns to pilots is not safe???

From block out to block in the pilots have our lives in their hands...And we all have seen what a f*@%ing joke airport security is - so why not let the pilots defend the cockpit and the airplane?

I say that a .45 should be in every flight bag!!!!!
 

hyper

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Obviously, I'm pro-gun. But all of my statements should assume the existance of a comprehensive training program. I am NOT for pilots having guns (or anyone for that matter) that cannot demonstrate an acceptable level of proficiency. We must do this to have a CWP, so should anyone else.
 

desert pilot

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HYPER,do you really think that ALL pilots will be allowed to carry guns?Now they are talking about ex military etc. That wont work,non military pilots have the same right to defend the plane and themselves.What about currency-do some shooting during your BFR?SCENARIO FOR YOU-lets say a group of young chinese men on your plane start fighting,you run out with your gun-they take over you your gun and the cockpit! any solutions?
 

flx757

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desert pilot said:
SCENARIO FOR YOU-lets say a group of young chinese men on your plane start fighting,you run out with your gun-they take over you your gun and the cockpit! any solutions?

Simple.....don't "run out". That is not part of the equation. The "last line of defense" is in case someone manages to enter the cockpit. Having the pilots exiting it is not the plan.
 

onetaco

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BigFlyr said:

2) If terrorists know that pilots are "packing" then I would think, since they (the terrorists) who apprarently have no fear of death, would not think twice to dissarm a pilot whether he be at the controls of a jet or in the men's room at an airport terminal.

If terrorists know that airport police & security are "packing" and it's so easy to disarm someone. Why don't they just disarm a cop in the men's/womens's room and use his/her gun?

BigFlyr said:

3) As soon as the cockpit door opens when a flight is in progress (entry doors closed) security is compromised because the pilots can be dissarmed, especially if they're busy.

(Security was comprised when we let these people across our unsecure border. But that's another topic.)

Do you think a pilot would have better odds going hand to hand with a terrorist? Do you think these people want to just fly to Havana and then negotiate on the tarmac for 12 hours? Their goal is to kill you. Do you think an unarmed pilot can somehow just talk the terrorist out of killing everyone? The stakes have gone up. Give a trained pilot a gun so he can use it as the last line of defense. It's to simple...
 

hyper

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Desertpilot,

Nobody's going to come running out of a cockpit with a gun. The ENTIRE point is last line of defense.

Did you actually read my previous post? Here it is again because you obviously missed it:

"Obviously, I'm pro-gun. But all of my statements should assume the existance of a comprehensive training program. I am NOT for pilots having guns (or anyone for that matter) that cannot demonstrate an acceptable level of proficiency. We must do this to have a CWP, so should anyone else."

Ummmm, I believe I mentioned that not all pilots should have them. You carry a permit for the gun, you go to regular check through your local feds or law enforcement to demonstrate proficiency. It certainly isn't impossible.

Bigflyer,

"1) If you cant even get a pair of tweezers through security, how do you suppose we'll be able to slip through with a hand gun? "

Dude, don't you read the news? People are getting through with guns all the time.......and we are in a heightened state of security! CVG and JFK were among the worst with a 50% failure rate in detecting objects planted to resemble guns and bombs.
How many folks filter through just those two airports alone each day? It is sad, but you can't stick your head in the sand and pretend it ain't happening.

"For those of you that live in a constant state of fear and paranoia and insist on "packing" when you go to McDonalds or Chucky-Cheese... Unless you have said weapon in your hand don't ever think that you cannot be dissarmed. Also, answer the following if you can."

I don't live in a constant state of fear and I don't pack when I go to mcdonalds, but I'll bet many more are than you'd care to think about.

I've said it before, I'll gladly give mine up when the criminals give theirs.
 

atpcliff

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Guns already HAVE been carried

Hi!

Most people now don't know this (I just found out last year). Previously, pilots were ALLOWED by the FAA to carry loaded handguns with them in the airport and in the cockpit.

I jumpseated with an older TWA captain, who always carried a loaded revolver in his flight case, until (about 1980, I think?), the FAA disallowed the practice.

A number of pilots carried guns for years. How many passengers or flight crew, or general public in the airports were accidently shot by these pilots over the years? 0.

How many were injured or killed by accident? 0.

I want a gun.

Cliff
GRB

PS-This captain said that if those pilots in the highjacked aircraft had guns, the planes would'nt have been highjacked, and wouldn't have destroyed the towers or the pentagon.
 

hyper

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135 already states that with approval from the c.ert. holder, crewmemers may carry
 

chawbein

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A slight conundrum...

Do both the pilot and the FO get to pack heat? If only one has the gun, who gets to shoot the "hijackers"???
One possible problem that could arise might be that the pilot and FO get into an arguement about who gets to shoot, and then result being that nobody shoots...;) ;)

Just kidding, but really, do both get to carry a weapon? It is really a moot arguement, because I'm sure that it will never happen again, at least as long as there are people like me on the plane.
 
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