Another Near Stall Incident Involving a CRJ at FL400

[User546]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050616X00790&key=1
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NTSB Identification: DCA05WA073
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 129: Foreign operation of Air Canada Jazz
Incident occurred Friday, June 10, 2005 in Canada/US border
Aircraft: , registration: Injuries: Unavailable
​

An Air Canada Jazz Bombardier CL-600-2D15, tail number C-FBJZ, was operating as flight JZA8501 from Houston, Texas to Calgary, Alberta Canada, experienced a stick shaker event while at flight level 400 and in the vicinity of the US/Canada border.

The airplane experienced a loss of airspeed and the flight crew pitched the nose down to maintain airspeed. The stick shaker and an aural stall warning sounded. The descent was arrested at flight level 380.

One passenger struck their head on the overhead bins during the descent maneuver. The Transportation Safety Board Canada is investigating and the Safety Board has provided a US accredited representative.​

 

[TonyC]

Apparently these folks aren't reading FlightInfo.com!!!!! We're going to have to insist that all pilots read FlightInfo, and perhaps take a comprehension test, prior to flying each day.








On a serious note... I alluded to this in a post a few days ago... I don't think the lessons fo PCL 3701 are being widely shared, if they're even being acknowledged, by even the training department at the airline where it happened. It's little surprise, then, that it's not shared among other operators of the same aircraft or similar aircraft.

When my wife complains about me "playing" on FlightInfo (OK, she's right most of the time ) I point out this and other topics of discussion where I believe we gain invaluable benefit from sharing information. We're all potentially much better off for having been here.



I'm glad these guys didn't fight the stick shaker, didn't flame out the engines, and DID live to write the safety reports.



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[601Pilot]

Apparently these folks aren't reading FlightInfo.com!!!!! We're going to have to insist that all pilots read FlightInfo, and perhaps take a comprehension test, prior to flying each day.








On a serious note... I alluded to this in a post a few days ago... I don't think the lessons fo PCL 3701 are being widely shared, if they're even being acknowledged, by even the training department at the airline where it happened. It's little surprise, then, that it's not shared among other operators of the same aircraft or similar aircraft.

When my wife complains about me "playing" on FlightInfo (OK, she's right most of the time ) I point out this and other topics of discussion where I believe we gain invaluable benefit from sharing information. We're all potentially much better off for having been here.



I'm glad these guys didn't fight the stick shaker, didn't flame out the engines, and DID live to write the safety reports.



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I know we have talked about this here at ASA; so hopefully every operator is
passing the info along to their pilots.

 

[User546]

I second and third everything TonyC said!

 

[410dude]

Dudes and especially dudettes need to be careful operating the CRJ at 410. It takes a skilled hand to keep it up there and I've done it before so I know what I speak.

 

[GravityHater]

What are the techniques? Besides the usual 'follow the OM', 'don't exceed the certification limits', 'fly the minimum speed for that PA/gross wt'?

Hand-fly is better?

Don't yank it around in general?

Keep the bank under 20deg?

First sign of trouble, put everyone to the roof?

I have been trying to find the ntsb report on the original, fatal one (the abbreviated one, not the 15-pager) without luck. Help?

 

[JohnnyCash]

"dudettes"??

ring the gong--this one is done!

how smurfy
oh smurfette
those dam monkeys and smurfs and dudettes. (mr. heston please take your seat)

john

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tony,

You have mentioned before that the lessons from 3701 haven't been applied......

But the official report isn't out yet..... There was a hearing and facts were released.....

 

[TonyC]

Tony,

You have mentioned before that the lessons from 3701 haven't been applied......

But the official report isn't out yet..... There was a hearing and facts were released.....

I understand your point, and agree.


However...


Some things can clearly be gleaned from just what we know already: the little that was released, and the proceedings that were public. Clearly, some action has already been taken - - altitude restrictions, company procedures on repositioning flights (flight data recorders), etc. There may be some recommendations that the NTSB makes that aren't yet obvious, but there are SOME lessons that seem obvious already. I guess I'm a little impatient, but I would have thought that the training department might apply what has been learned already to better prepare the pilots that are on the line today. It would be tragic if this same type of thing were to happen prior to the release of the NTSB's final report.


I suppose making some changes, though, would be tantamount to admitting a portion of the fault. I'll leave it at that.





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[Flechas]

I suppose making some changes, though, would be tantamount to admitting a portion of the fault. I'll leave it at that.

Being at fault or not, some changes need to be made, and that shouldn't be the reason for not making changes so far. It would suck to lose more pilots because of this.

 

[FN FAL]

Being at fault or not, some changes need to be made, and that shouldn't be the reason for not making changes so far. It would suck to lose more pilots because of this.

It's too bad they had to make new rules.

I saw something relevent today at the "fleet farm". I was looking at buying a Fram oil filter for my wife's car and some old dude had his cart parked in front of the book hanging off the shelf that listed all the Fram oil filters, so I had to wait until this soap opera unfolded.

He was lost and some Fleet Farm employee comes over and asks..."Can I help you?"

He says, "Yea, I'm looking for an oil filter for a 2000 Ford."

She opens that book and gets to the 2000 Ford section and asks, "Is it a pickup truck, mini-van or a sedan?"

He acts surprised, as if Ford made more than one vehicle and they go back and forth...eventually the chick gets this guy a model number on the Fram oil filter.

The chick asks me if I need any help and I say, "No, I just need to look my filter up in the book."

Finally, the old man has his cart out of the way and I can use the book to look up what I need, I find it and grab it. Within minutes, the wife and I are in our car...paid for the filter, paid for the oil and we on our way.

So, the wife and I are going down the road and I say, "Honey, when the chick from Fleet Farm saw the old dude stranded in the Fram filter isle...how come she didn't ask, 'Who won the 1958 world series or who was the 24th president of the United States?'"

My wife looked at me like, "What the hell are you getting at now?"

I said, "Don't you remember the John Carpenter movie, "They Live"?

She goes, "Yea?"

And I said, "When the hell does an American male who has been on this planet for over 65 years, need somebody to hand feed him the way to a Fram oil filter in a Fleet Farm?"

They are here...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I understand your point, and agree.


However...


Some things can clearly be gleaned from just what we know already: the little that was released, and the proceedings that were public. Clearly, some action has already been taken - - altitude restrictions, company procedures on repositioning flights (flight data recorders), etc. There may be some recommendations that the NTSB makes that aren't yet obvious, but there are SOME lessons that seem obvious already. I guess I'm a little impatient, but I would have thought that the training department might apply what has been learned already to better prepare the pilots that are on the line today. It would be tragic if this same type of thing were to happen prior to the release of the NTSB's final report.


I suppose making some changes, though, would be tantamount to admitting a portion of the fault. I'll leave it at that.
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Tony C.,

Well changes are being made, but not the NPRM or congressional way one might like to see. The new FARS that make regional training much better may or may not arrive and certianly not as much as we'd like to see....

First, let's not look for "A one shot kill" hollywood style clean up..... Of all people Tony C you are not looking for this.... but some are....

There are two changes that are being made right now.... Personal reflection/self analysis and CYA.

Individual pilots are looking in the mirror and starting to realize what can happen if you don't police yourselves. And they are becoming better pilots....

As far as CYA..... I let the reader continue on from here.....

 

[trip]

I thought most operators were restricted to 370 the following week after the PCL crash? I guess the Canucks still have faith!

 

[TonyC]

First, let's not look for "A one shot kill" hollywood style clean up..... Of all people Tony C you are not looking for this....

Not at all. I would have hoped, though, that the story of PCL 3701 might at least be shared among Pinnacle pilots. As I explained in another thread, I spoke to a PCL pilot just last week, and upon asking him what he knew about the flight, had him tell me he knew nothing about it because "they don't tell us about those things." I think we take for granted the information we get from FlightInfo.com. Apparently, the personal reflection is not as widespread as you might think. THAT's the lack that I speak of.








Gotta go fly - - y'all have fun.




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[Flechas]

Not at all. I would have hoped, though, that the story of PCL 3701 might at least be shared among Pinnacle pilots. As I explained in another thread, I spoke to a PCL pilot just last week, and upon asking him what he knew about the flight, had him tell me he knew nothing about it because "they don't tell us about those things." I think we take for granted the information we get from FlightInfo.com. Apparently, the personal reflection is not as widespread as you might think. THAT's the lack that I speak of.

Gotta go fly - - y'all have fun.

Agree with Tony, something happened at coex a few months ago and I only read about it here, and didn't even get the full story. It was safety related, you would think they want you to know this kind of stuff so it doesn't happen again.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not at all. I would have hoped, though, that the story of PCL 3701 might at least be shared among Pinnacle pilots. As I explained in another thread, I spoke to a PCL pilot just last week, and upon asking him what he knew about the flight, had him tell me he knew nothing about it because "they don't tell us about those things." I think we take for granted the information we get from FlightInfo.com. Apparently, the personal reflection is not as widespread as you might think. THAT's the lack that I speak of.








Gotta go fly - - y'all have fun.




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Tony,

What do you say we split the difference......

In addition, offer your solutions or suggestions as to how you think something should be done...

Again, how do you want the story of 3701 to shared umongsts the pilots? A formalized briefing from the training dept.? The report isn't final and no gov't directives have been issues. Thus, the lawyers are in CYA mode...

The person you talked to was new to MEM? Getting his drivers license I think. Well perhaps he was brand new to the company..... ( can you clairfy your encounter).

IF you are this educated on the issue then why wouldn't we be? Just becuase you ran into ONE pilot, who may have been a new hire?

The pilots I fly with are just as informed as you about 3701. We're current in the jet and we are applying what we know.........

 

[surplus1]

It was safety related, you would think they want you to know this kind of stuff so it doesn't happen again.

That's a logical and a nice thought but it's not "real world". Unfortunately, it requires a level of maturity in management that does not exist at most regional airlines and only exists at a very few major airlines.

Remember, only a few years ago major airline management used to rush the painters to the scene to cover up the company logo.

Everybody talks "safety first", but most companies run the CYA program long before they think about passing out safety tips.

If you watched the public hearing for PCL3701 you must have noticed that a large part of the testimony from the manufacturer and the airline was delivered in full CYA mode. They focused on how to protect their own interests and ensure that they were not included in the "probable cause".

 

[Flechas]

That's a logical and a nice thought but it's not "real world". Unfortunately, it requires a level of maturity in management that does not exist at most regional airlines and only exists at a very few major airlines.

Remember, only a few years ago major airline management used to rush the painters to the scene to cover up the company logo.

Everybody talks "safety first", but most companies run the CYA program long before they think about passing out safety tips.

If you watched the public hearing for PCL3701 you must have noticed that a large part of the testimony from the manufacturer and the airline was delivered in full CYA mode. They focused on how to protect their own interests and ensure that they were not included in the "probable cause".

You are right, and it shouldn't be that way, but I guess it's a product of the American way (Lawsuits). It's a catch 22 and like you said, the bottom line is always first.

 

[EagleRJ]

I thought most operators were restricted to 370 the following week after the PCL crash? I guess the Canucks still have faith!

The aircraft in question was not a 200 series, but the more powerful 700 series. To my knowledge, no operators have restricted the -700 to lower than its 41,000' ceiling, but the same aerodynamic limitations still apply to it.

This incident has already been discussed at length here.

 

[JohnE]

Whats the big deal? Just lower the nose and recover. Sounds like the pilot (HPIC) threw the control wheel forward in a panic and some pax got jostled around a bit. He should learn some finesse.

Would be curious though what sort of pitch attitude they would be using up that high.

 

[trip]

Our 70's are restricted to 390.

 

[Flechas]

Whats the big deal? Just lower the nose and recover. Sounds like the pilot (HPIC) threw the control wheel forward in a panic and some pax got jostled around a bit. He should learn some finesse.

Would be curious though what sort of pitch attitude they would be using up that high.

This coming from a 350 hour hot shot...

 

[JohnE]

This coming from a 350 hour hot shot...

LOL! But seriously.. Wouldn't the pilot see the high pitch angle? I ass-u-me that they are basically at the max ceiling and are at a high angle of attack. Still getting a decent TAS, but not IAS. Maybe he could have lowered the nose smoothly.

 

[TonyC]

The person you talked to was new to MEM? Getting his drivers license I think. Well perhaps he was brand new to the company..... ( can you clairfy your encounter).

IF you are this educated on the issue then why wouldn't we be? Just becuase you ran into ONE pilot, who may have been a new hire?

From what I could tell, the guy I ran into had completed training, and then moved his family to Memphis, and was finally geting around to the administrative details of changing his driver license. (If it had been me, I probably would have waited four years until my current one expired. ) My thought - - please don't take this as an accusation - - is that maybe we're more informed for having read this forum than some pilots that don't. I should have made it clear that it's just my perception, and there's a high probability that my perception is way off the mark.

I appreciate you offering your perception, as it is clearly much more valid and relevant. I was just thinkin' out loud - - nuthin' more.

The pilots I fly with are just as informed as you about 3701. We're current in the jet and we are applying what we know.........

And therefore much more qualified to comment than I - - take my ramblings with many grains of salt.








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[joevollers]

Dudes and especially dudettes need to be careful operating the CRJ at 410. It takes a skilled hand to keep it up there and I've done it before so I know what I speak.

I have never flown an RJ but know what it takes to keep a Lear up at 490--- The answer is Airspeed-- If the plane cannot climb there at cruise speed then do not take it there! --- It should not take a skilled hand; just enough experience to know that if you don't have the energy to climb there with in .01 mach of normal cruise-----do not go there

 

[clownhater]

Stop frigging taking that damn airplane that high. It is a complete dog in the climb and has no business ever going above FL350. Why people out there don't realize this is completely beyond me. This is not rocket science

 

[FN FAL]

Stop frigging taking that dang airplane that high. It is a complete dog in the climb and has no business ever going above FL350. Why people out there don't realize this is completely beyond me. This is not rocket science

Tuesday I had to fly a couple of loads for my buddy the Drop Zone Owner. His student was in from the west coast and she's a 747 F0 with NWA. She says she heard a rumor that there appears to be a "410" club at Pinnacle.

If that's true, it sounds like people are dying to get in.

 

[TonyC]

In addition, offer your solutions or suggestions as to how you think something should be done...

Again, how do you want the story of 3701 to shared umongsts the pilots? A formalized briefing from the training dept.?

I realized this morning that I forgot to address this part of your post last night.

Mind you, these are just thoughts...

Official communication to all PCL pilots to "REMIND" them of certain considerations for taking an airplane to an altitude, say, above FL250. Remind them that it is their responsibility to refer to performance charts before accepting a clearance to a higher altitude. Dispatchers can help, knowing planned loads and forecast weather, but only the pilot in the airplane at THAT time can know the actual conditions, and whether accepting a clearance to FL290 would exceed the capability of the airplane.

Official communication to all PCL pilots to REMIND them of procedures or acceptable techniques to be used during high-altitude climb. Emphasize the importance of maintaining a minimum airspeed, and reiterate what that airspeed is, or how to determine it if it varies.

Official communication to all PCL pilots to REMIND them of the proper actions to take IMMEDIATELY upon activation of stick shaker or stick pusher. Inclusion of training module into recurrent events that ensure all pilots know proper procedures and ramifications of ignoring the stick shaker.


Widespread publication of the data provided by manufacturers about the "core lock-up" phenomenon. Reading the information doesn't place blame, but it educates all operators and heightens awareness of a certain risk.


Add a restriction to the company's 121-required flight manual that specifically prohibits swapping seats when only two pilots are aboard. (You'd think this one was obvious, but apparently it wasn't.)

Official communication to all PCL pilots to REMIND them of the need to accurately communicate with outside agencies, i.e., ATC, when there services are required or can be useful to ensure the safe conclusion of a flight. (We might not be talking about this had PCL 3701 glided to land at one of the airports within range when the flameouts occurred.)



Anyway, as I stated before, these are just my thoughts, and deserve no more consideration than just that. I have no aspirations to be management, so I'm not even gonna play that "If I was in charge..." game. I sincerely hope lessons are learned and this accident does NOT have a second chapter. Don't misconstrue my comments as finger-pointing, as that's certainly not my intent.






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[Occam's Razor]

This is not rocket science

Um...actually, it is.

Thrust-to-weight, defying gravity, etc.

It's covered in Chapter 3 of my Junior Rocket Scientist's Handbook.

Agree with, though...not too smart to push the envelope with a tube full of humans.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tony C.,

At the risk of going round and round.... Since there is no official report and official communication to the pilot group would have to be justified and queried as to why. Thus liability.

Any communication about core lock would need coordination with GE. Again liability.

As far as swapping seats and communication to ATC. Is it a problem? Does this happen alot? Often? Occasionally? If a message is put out to the pilots it can been seen as real problem amongst the entire pilot group. Seen by the industry and the press....

Let me turn the tables.... FedEx has had two MD-11/MD-10 accidents... Has anything come from that in terms of landing techinque, training, etc...? (real question here...)