Another multi logging question

[IrishFlyer]

Hi,

I am asking this question on behalf of two of two instructors at my flight school.

Instructor 1: Has MEI
Instructor 2: Has ME

Both flying light twin (GA-7 Cougar) one under the hood the other acting as safety pilot. Flight is not a training flight only for proficiency and hour building. Can both instructors log PIC if no training given?

Thanks,

IF

 

[PaulThomas]

Yes.
Both are required crewmember in this scenario
One is safety pilot ==>required crew member, acting a PIC (and logging)
On is flying the plane ==> sole manipulator of controls, logging PIC

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Yes.
Both are required crewmember in this scenario
One is safety pilot ==>required crew member, acting a PIC (and logging)
On is flying the plane ==> sole manipulator of controls, logging PIC

Just remember, the safety pilot does get to log PIC simply by virtue of being the safety pilot. There are additional hoops to jump through:

1) He must meet the currency requirements of 61.57, have a current and valid medical as required by 61.3 and 61.23, and meet the flight review requirements defined by 61.56. All of these are assumed met in this case.

2) The two pilots must also agree that the safety pilot will be ACTING PIC. He is not acting PIC simply because he is the safety pilot. It doesn't take much, "I'm acting PIC when you're under the hood, right?" "Yup." Done.

 

[flyf15]

Hmm, why not just have one instructor give the other one dual?

 

[nosehair]

Hmm, why not just have one instructor give the other one dual?

Because,...unless it is REEELY dual, it's not ethical....

 

[flyf15]

I don't know, often times it really does turn into dual if you want it to. I've done some "fun flights" with another instructor that ended up being me instructing him on IFR cross countries...he had become pretty rusty.

There is most definately something that each instructor can instruct the other on. Not just to say that, I really mean it. But, if it truely a flight where one person is just a passenger and no aviation instruction is going on at all, then I agree, it should not be a "dual instruction given/recieved" flight.

 

[PropsForward]

I don't know, often times it really does turn into dual if you want it to. I've done some "fun flights" with another instructor that ended up being me instructing him on IFR cross countries...he had become pretty rusty.

I agree, you get two CFI's together and they have different ways about doing this and that. It really is a learning/training experience for both.

 

[bertengineer]

Two Cfi's

I agree, you get two CFI's together and they have different ways about doing this and that. It really is a learning/training experience for both.

Yeah, until one of them says "Watch This!"

Bert

 

[HMR]

Yeah, until one of them says "Watch This!"

So true! I had a fellow MEI say this to me just before we barrel rolled a Duchess. I couldn't believe he did it... So I made him do it again.

Irish- At least these guys are using a hood. Earlier this year near ABQ I ran into two students from a well known school that flies seminoles all over the country. They had just gotten their instrument tickets and were flying from FL to CA to build time. They had a hood on board- it was stuffed in one of the suitcases behind the back seat. The said they were enjoying their 15 hour sightseeing flight.

 

[PropsForward]

Yeah, until one of them says "Watch This!"

Bert

Yeah, The most dangerous situation is to have two CFI's in the airplane at once...

 

[PropsForward]

They had a hood on board- it was stuffed in one of the suitcases behind the back seat.

Hey! Them things are expensive! Don't want to get them scratched now!

 

[crzepilot]

Yes you both can log PIC even if one is giving dual, but be able to explain how you can recieve dual and log dual, refer to the defintions of PIC in Part 1 as well as applicable rules of Part 61

 

[PropsForward]

Yes you both can log PIC even if one is giving dual, but be able to explain how you can recieve dual and log dual, refer to the defintions of PIC in Part 1 as well as applicable rules of Part 61

61.51(e)(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;​

61.51(e)(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.​

So, a student, with a pilot certificate rated in that aircraft can log PIC. And the instructor can log PIC. Pretty easy.​

 

[SigAV8R]

Okay, here's another scenario...what if both pilots in a twin (for the sake of this argument, let's say a cessna 421) are MEIs and one of them is flying as an extra crewmember. He's not logging safety pilot time, and he's not a "required" crewmember by any definition (ops specs, FARs, etc). The non-flying pilot however is getting instruction though on the systems, performance, handling of that airplane for training as another PIC for a company to use. Can the 2nd pilot log it as Dual Received even though it's not flight training for recurrent or other legal requirements. Would there be an acceptable "maximum" amount this pilot could log as dual received before it looks suspicious or like he's just riding to build time? I've been approached about this and would like other peoples input.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Dual Received even though it's not flight training for recurrent or other legal requirements. Would there be an acceptable "maximum" amount this pilot could log as dual received before it looks suspicious or like he's just riding to build time? I've been approached about this and would like other peoples input.

I don't think there's a bright line test for number of hours.

What you have to do is much simpler. Ask yourself "Is this really an instructional flight or are we just trying to screw around with the regs to build time?"

"Dual Received" with no control manipulation for stuff that could be down on the ground? My "smell" threshold would be pretty short.

 

[SigAV8R]

I don't think there's a bright line test for number of hours.

What you have to do is much simpler. Ask yourself "Is this really an instructional flight or are we just trying to screw around with the regs to build time?"

"Dual Received" with no control manipulation for stuff that could be down on the ground? My "smell" threshold would be pretty short.

Yes, but what if it is for "flight training" in that particular airplane...as in the person sitting in the right seat needs to build make/model time for insurance regulations but also twin time? Does that still apply?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes, but what if it is for "flight training" in that particular airplane...as in the person sitting in the right seat needs to build make/model time for insurance regulations but also twin time? Does that still apply?

I'm not sure I understand. Let's make sure I know what you're asking.

Pilot A is a CFI. Pilot B is not (or whether or not pilot B is a CFI is irrelevant). Pilot B needs make and model time for insurance requirements and also, of course, wants to build time.

A and B fly together. The purpose of the flight is not flight instruction, but a single pilot 135 Op. While A does all of the flying he "teaches" B how to work those new avionics and explains flight procedures, most of which could be done far more effectively on the ground to begin with). B never touches the flight controls.

Are you asking how many hours of looking at the dials and the MFD's pretty display could B log as "instruction received" flight time before someone smells the BS?

 

[Superpilot92]

How about the MEI give the ME training for his ATP or even another MEI
?