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Another king Air question
- Thread starter F16fixer
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User546
The Ultimate Show Stopper
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- Jan 24, 2004
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Here's a question I haven't seen answered yet.
F16 - Do you have a high altitude endoresement? If you don't all this is a mute point.
The regs say VERY CLEARY, that without a High Altitude Endorsement, you can not act as PIC in an aircrat with a certificated service ceiling of 27,000 feet or higher.
F16 - Do you have a high altitude endoresement? If you don't all this is a mute point.
The regs say VERY CLEARY, that without a High Altitude Endorsement, you can not act as PIC in an aircrat with a certificated service ceiling of 27,000 feet or higher.
user997
It's people like you that make this website not helpful. If you would have read the WHOLE post you would see that my ? had nothing to do with high altitude endorsements. And just what FAR are you reading that says 27,000 ft? 61.31G CLEARLY STATES 25,000 FT AND ABOVE. IDIOT. THANKS for putting your 2 cents in where it wasn't needed
It's people like you that make this website not helpful. If you would have read the WHOLE post you would see that my ? had nothing to do with high altitude endorsements. And just what FAR are you reading that says 27,000 ft? 61.31G CLEARLY STATES 25,000 FT AND ABOVE. IDIOT. THANKS for putting your 2 cents in where it wasn't needed
Guys...its not that hard. It can be in the King Air example or a simpler one....how about this:
You are rated for single engine land airplanes, no complex or HP endorsement. You go fly with an instructor who has the endorsements in a complex or HP airplane. You can be sole manipulator of the controls and LOG PIC as sole manipulator of an airplane for which you are rated (single engine land). You are not ACTING as PIC because you dont have the endorsement. The instructor is ACTING because he is legal to fly it.
If you are the only one in the airplane, LOGGING and ACTING are the same, but add another pilot and things change.
Similarly, for the King Air, the Left seater is ACTING as PIC because he is rated and has all the sign offs necessary to fly it. By sitting in the seat next to him and being sole manipulator you can LOG PIC if you are Multi-engine land rated.
As long as you are rated, category and class....you can log as sole manipulator.
Hope this helps. Anyone who sees errors in what I have said...please correct me.
You are rated for single engine land airplanes, no complex or HP endorsement. You go fly with an instructor who has the endorsements in a complex or HP airplane. You can be sole manipulator of the controls and LOG PIC as sole manipulator of an airplane for which you are rated (single engine land). You are not ACTING as PIC because you dont have the endorsement. The instructor is ACTING because he is legal to fly it.
If you are the only one in the airplane, LOGGING and ACTING are the same, but add another pilot and things change.
Similarly, for the King Air, the Left seater is ACTING as PIC because he is rated and has all the sign offs necessary to fly it. By sitting in the seat next to him and being sole manipulator you can LOG PIC if you are Multi-engine land rated.
As long as you are rated, category and class....you can log as sole manipulator.
Hope this helps. Anyone who sees errors in what I have said...please correct me.
The reg says that you can log PIC if you are the sole manipulator and rated or has privliges? Please clue me in. I have 6 flights in an arrow were my instructor only allowed me to log dual. This was before my commercial check ride I believe. Then one day he figured he better sign my log book, so I could finish up.
(not because of performance, but lack of ambition on his part)
Is this scenario wrong.
I like to get more than one response. Wrong information I received (First post) is why this whole thread of postings was started. So, please understand I am a little skeptical of some peoples opinions.
(not because of performance, but lack of ambition on his part)
Is this scenario wrong.
I like to get more than one response. Wrong information I received (First post) is why this whole thread of postings was started. So, please understand I am a little skeptical of some peoples opinions.
F16fixer,
If you are rated in the airplane, meaning you hold CATEGORY and CLASS (and if required, TYPE), you may log as PIC all the time spent as sole manipulator of the controls, in accordance with 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i):
The FAA has held numerous times that an endorsement is NOT a rating, and is not required to LOG the time.
Logging means writing the time in your logbook, and the regulation that spells out the requirements for logging flight time are found in 61.51. This regulation does not address what is required to ACT as pilot in command. Logging is a paper issue. Acting as pilot in command means taking full responsibility for the safe outcome of the flight, and all aspects of the flight. Logging is where pen meets the paper, and acting is where the rubber meets the road, or air meets the wing as the case may be.
Without a high performance endorsement you may log time in a high performance airplane as PIC, if you're rated with category and class. If you hold an airplane category rating, and a single engine land class rating, and you act as sole manipulator of the controls having a recreational pilot certificate or higher, then yes, you may log PIC, without the high performance endorsement, in an aircraft that requires a high performance endorsement. And you probably should; insurance requirements being what they are, you need to be able to show that time if you're a low time pilot.
Without the endorsement, you can't actually take charge of the airplane; you are not privileged to hold the full responsibility of pilot in command.
A lot of pilots question why one can log PIC when one isn't the acting PIC. The reason is simple. Logging time is record keeping for certain purposes. Among them are recency of flight experience, use of flight experience toward a certificate or rating, etc. Even meeting insurance requirements.
Suppose your medical certificate lapses. You want to stay current. You can still do the takeoffs and landings with another pilot acting as PIC, but you may log the landings, log the time as PIC...after all, it's you flying the airplane. You may log it, exactly as the regulation quoted above says you can. And you should be able to log it. It's acceptable, legal, appropriate.
You're training to fly an airplane for which you don't hold an endorsement. You're sole manipulator. You're rated in the airplane. You hold category and class ratings, and a recreational pilot certificate, or higher. You fly the airplane; you manipulate the controls; you takeoff, you land, you fly approaches, you do whatever you want to do with that airplane, as you're flying it. You log it, legally, in accordance with the regulation quoted above. You don't have a high performance/high altitude/conventional gear/whatever endorsement for it...that only means you can't be the acting pilot in command. Endorsements have nothing to do with, and play no part of, the regulations regarding the logging of flight time.
You'll note that 61.31(e) refers to acting as pilot in command in a complex airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in complex airplanes, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
You'll note that 61.31(f) refers to acting as pilot in command in ahigh performance airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in a high performance airplane, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
You'll note that 61.31(g) refers to acting as pilot in command in a pressurized airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in a pressurized airplane, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
You'll note that 61.31(i) refers to acting as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in a tailwheel airpalne, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
Do you see the common thread here, acting vs. logging? Log the time. The regulation was designed to permit you to log the time. You do not need a current flight review, recent flight experience, or a current medical certificate to log time. You need all of those things to act as pilot in command. You don't need an instrument rating to log instrument time, but you certainly need it to act as pilot in command in instrument conditions. Yes, you can log the time, and to keep your insurance carrier happy, I suggest you do log the time. You can't act as pilot in command until you are fully endorsed, but that's an entirely separate issue. If you need to log the time as PIC for a certificate or rating, then by all means, do so. You're entitled, so says the regualtion.
You'll find a lot of folks, mostly those flying an airline seat, that turn down their nose in distain at your doing so; ignore them. They know that under Part 121 (or 135), the operator assigns a pilot in command and that PIC remains the PIC for the entire show. But not so for you. Those flying in their seat so long the sheepskin is imprinted on their butts like a tattoo will look down their noses and tell you that if it's not done the way they think it should be done, the way they're used to doing it, then its all wrong...and they're full of hot air.
You log that time; you're entitled to log it, and you should. Especially at this early stage in your career when you're trying to show as much experience as you can, and you're paying through the nose to do it. Log it. It's not going to kill you, it's not going to kill your carreer, it's not going to land you in hot water with the Administrator...you're adhering to and keeping the regulation as it was intended.
Now trying to show hundreds of hours of "dual" in the King Air is another matter, but we've pretty much covered that one, haven't we?
As an aside, let me specifically address part of the following question you asked:
The instructor may endorse your logbook for the instruction given. The instructor has NO authority nor place telling you what you can and cant' log. If you were sole manipulator and you're entitled to log it, you write in the PIC time, even if the instructor doesn't. It's none of the instructor's business; his business and purpose is to endorse for the instruction he's provided. Period.
Do I sign your logbook for the instruction given? You betcha. And either you, or I, may put in there the fact that it's loggable as PIC. I'll write it in anyway, but you're certainly entitled to do so if I don't; you're legally entitled, and I would have no authority to tell you otherwise. Don't let any instructor tell you differently, because if he does, he's outside the scope of his authority.
If you are rated in the airplane, meaning you hold CATEGORY and CLASS (and if required, TYPE), you may log as PIC all the time spent as sole manipulator of the controls, in accordance with 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i):
The FAA has held numerous times that an endorsement is NOT a rating, and is not required to LOG the time.
Logging means writing the time in your logbook, and the regulation that spells out the requirements for logging flight time are found in 61.51. This regulation does not address what is required to ACT as pilot in command. Logging is a paper issue. Acting as pilot in command means taking full responsibility for the safe outcome of the flight, and all aspects of the flight. Logging is where pen meets the paper, and acting is where the rubber meets the road, or air meets the wing as the case may be.
Without a high performance endorsement you may log time in a high performance airplane as PIC, if you're rated with category and class. If you hold an airplane category rating, and a single engine land class rating, and you act as sole manipulator of the controls having a recreational pilot certificate or higher, then yes, you may log PIC, without the high performance endorsement, in an aircraft that requires a high performance endorsement. And you probably should; insurance requirements being what they are, you need to be able to show that time if you're a low time pilot.
Without the endorsement, you can't actually take charge of the airplane; you are not privileged to hold the full responsibility of pilot in command.
A lot of pilots question why one can log PIC when one isn't the acting PIC. The reason is simple. Logging time is record keeping for certain purposes. Among them are recency of flight experience, use of flight experience toward a certificate or rating, etc. Even meeting insurance requirements.
Suppose your medical certificate lapses. You want to stay current. You can still do the takeoffs and landings with another pilot acting as PIC, but you may log the landings, log the time as PIC...after all, it's you flying the airplane. You may log it, exactly as the regulation quoted above says you can. And you should be able to log it. It's acceptable, legal, appropriate.
You're training to fly an airplane for which you don't hold an endorsement. You're sole manipulator. You're rated in the airplane. You hold category and class ratings, and a recreational pilot certificate, or higher. You fly the airplane; you manipulate the controls; you takeoff, you land, you fly approaches, you do whatever you want to do with that airplane, as you're flying it. You log it, legally, in accordance with the regulation quoted above. You don't have a high performance/high altitude/conventional gear/whatever endorsement for it...that only means you can't be the acting pilot in command. Endorsements have nothing to do with, and play no part of, the regulations regarding the logging of flight time.
You'll note that 61.31(e) refers to acting as pilot in command in a complex airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in complex airplanes, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
You'll note that 61.31(f) refers to acting as pilot in command in ahigh performance airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in a high performance airplane, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
You'll note that 61.31(g) refers to acting as pilot in command in a pressurized airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in a pressurized airplane, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
You'll note that 61.31(i) refers to acting as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane, and does not address the logging of pilot in command in a tailwheel airpalne, or the logging of flight time at all...as that's addressed in 61.51.
Do you see the common thread here, acting vs. logging? Log the time. The regulation was designed to permit you to log the time. You do not need a current flight review, recent flight experience, or a current medical certificate to log time. You need all of those things to act as pilot in command. You don't need an instrument rating to log instrument time, but you certainly need it to act as pilot in command in instrument conditions. Yes, you can log the time, and to keep your insurance carrier happy, I suggest you do log the time. You can't act as pilot in command until you are fully endorsed, but that's an entirely separate issue. If you need to log the time as PIC for a certificate or rating, then by all means, do so. You're entitled, so says the regualtion.
You'll find a lot of folks, mostly those flying an airline seat, that turn down their nose in distain at your doing so; ignore them. They know that under Part 121 (or 135), the operator assigns a pilot in command and that PIC remains the PIC for the entire show. But not so for you. Those flying in their seat so long the sheepskin is imprinted on their butts like a tattoo will look down their noses and tell you that if it's not done the way they think it should be done, the way they're used to doing it, then its all wrong...and they're full of hot air.
You log that time; you're entitled to log it, and you should. Especially at this early stage in your career when you're trying to show as much experience as you can, and you're paying through the nose to do it. Log it. It's not going to kill you, it's not going to kill your carreer, it's not going to land you in hot water with the Administrator...you're adhering to and keeping the regulation as it was intended.
Now trying to show hundreds of hours of "dual" in the King Air is another matter, but we've pretty much covered that one, haven't we?
As an aside, let me specifically address part of the following question you asked:
The instructor may endorse your logbook for the instruction given. The instructor has NO authority nor place telling you what you can and cant' log. If you were sole manipulator and you're entitled to log it, you write in the PIC time, even if the instructor doesn't. It's none of the instructor's business; his business and purpose is to endorse for the instruction he's provided. Period.
Do I sign your logbook for the instruction given? You betcha. And either you, or I, may put in there the fact that it's loggable as PIC. I'll write it in anyway, but you're certainly entitled to do so if I don't; you're legally entitled, and I would have no authority to tell you otherwise. Don't let any instructor tell you differently, because if he does, he's outside the scope of his authority.
Last edited:
User546
The Ultimate Show Stopper
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2004
- Posts
- 1,958
You know what, I'm just going to chalk this one up to you having an obviously bad Saturday afternoon, and am going to let your last comments go.F16fixer said:
You shouldn't berate and belittle the people that are trying to be kind enough to help you out in your situation.
And for the record, I did read this thread all the way thru a couple times before posting.
I apologize
You're right.
I haven't been able to teach hardly at all lately, and its made me a little mad.
I live in MN and the weather has been great temp wise, but today winds are 20 gusting to 30 something and I'm trying to work with a few students who have only soloed a couple of times and if it isn't the wind its the fog, ice, vis, or cigs. Anyway I guess its all part of teaching and training up here. Poor me! blah blah
You're right.
I haven't been able to teach hardly at all lately, and its made me a little mad.
I live in MN and the weather has been great temp wise, but today winds are 20 gusting to 30 something and I'm trying to work with a few students who have only soloed a couple of times and if it isn't the wind its the fog, ice, vis, or cigs. Anyway I guess its all part of teaching and training up here. Poor me! blah blah
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