Annoying FBO things....

[LegacyDriver]

That's my understanding, any way. Thankfully I have not had one for real yet... Hung starts rarely, but never a hot one. I don't intend to either.

 

[Flying Illini]

Flying Illini,

You speak the truth. I have no problem with that. I know the ins and outs of line service and I also know how to smile when all you want to do is stick your foot in some rich guys butt. I don't like my job but I show up every day ready to work. I provide the best service available in this industry. It's tough having to do the grunt work and always getting the short end of the stick. I'm sure you know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. Good for you and here is a "thankyou" from all of the pilots you've helped. I don't know your career plans, but if you end up on the corporate or charter side of the biz, you will quickly understand what has been said in these posts. You sound like a stand-up line guy, keep it up and try to influence that in all of the people you work with. You guys are the "ramp ambassadors."
And believe me...all of us in this biz have come across some rich guy that makes you want to stick your foot up his butt.

 

[skyking1976]

Skyking 1976: We put the chocks under the tires so you don't have to engage the brakes. The trash doesn't get picked up because you are probably a bad tipper.

Here we go...

Let me start by saying that I appreciate everything that line guys do for the crew/pax at an FBO. Without you guys, nothing would ever get done. Now then. Deflate your chest, relax for a minute, and let me clarify some things for you.

Like several others in my chosen profession, I started out pumping gas for an FBO. I understand how much you guys make, what the work conditions are like, etc. I've been there. FBO's are not just gas stations. They are the first thing a passenger sees when they come to the airport for a chartered flight. People pay a premium price for a premium service. The pilots/mechanics/flight attendants make sure the airplane is in immaculate condition and appearance. If passengers see trash on the ramp before they even enter the airplane, what kind of image do you think that creates? What will they expect out of the rest of their trip?

FBOs are in business to provide a service. Pilots expect to be asked if they need ice, catering, how much fuel, any trash, how long are you staying with us, and are your brakes off if we need to move the airplane? You never know if it's standard procedure for a charter company to leave the brakes on or not. Chocks in place do not always equate to "brakes off." FBOs chock aircraft for liability reasons. If you don't believe me, ask your station manager.

Regarding tips. If all we do is sit on your ramp and wait for passengers, you're not getting any tip. If it puts you out to set the red carpet in front of the steps, don't even bother putting it there. I don't want it or need it. On the other hand, if we call ahead, ask for a "quick turn" with catering, fuel, bug job, the whole 9 yards, I will gladly reward good service with a good tip. Saying that trash doesn't get picked due to lack of a tip is assinine. You get the tip after the job is done, not before.

Take all this for what is worth. I'm not trying to slam any FBO or FBO employee in particular. These are all just observations I have about how I believe a professional image and service can create a good relationship between FBOs and their customers.

SK

 

[AV8R4]

Flying Illini,

Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated.

skyking1976,

You have made valid points. I am only speaking from experiences at my FBO. I guess every FBO operates in their own unique way.

 

[GVFlyer]

FL 350: The magnetic door lock is there so that Joe Blow can't walk out onto the ramp and mess with your aircraft. You have to come up with something better than that.

Skyking 1976: We put the chocks under the tires so you don't have to engage the brakes. The trash doesn't get picked up because you are probably a bad tipper.

Flying Illini: No, it's because you guys trash the cars and then we get stuck cleaning up the mess. You want a free ride and don't have the manners to put a little fuel in the car that you got for FREE. It beats getting a cab, which would cost you much more than a few gallons of fuel. Think about it.

Let me see if I can reverse the situations that you all are describing.

WE fuel your planes. WE wash your dishes. WE provide you with free transportation in the form of a crew car. WE get your ice, coffee and papers. WE provide you with ground power. WE throw your trash out. WE make sure that your passengers transportation is waiting upon their arrival.

YOU don't buy any fuel (not in all cases). YOU trash the crew cars. YOU keep the crew cars out for periods exceeding two hours. YOU bring the crew car back with no fuel in it. YOU have kept others from using the crew car because you were late bringing it back. YOU get all of the services that you have requested, most of which are free and then you have the nerve to say you've been mistreated. Wow! Oh yeah and thanks for the tip!!!!

Where do you work?

 

[AV8R4]

I don't think that I'll give out that info today. We have all had our say here and I think that we are all in agreement.

 

[aroundtheblock]

I'm all for dropping a $20 bill if a line guy goes above and beyond his job description. But to tip him for doing his basic job is not right. When was the last time a pilot got a tip for landing an airplane or setting the proper thrust setting. But the main reason for this post was not line guy problems it is FBO problems. I don't have a problem for a lack of ammenities if the price/gal is $2.40 or less. It's the $3.75/gal and no ammenities that pisses me off. We do alot od business @ Enterprise Jet @ Hobby. Cheap fuel and great line guys and ammenities. Highly reccommended.

 

[OPECJet]

I just love those FBOs who don't answer the radio when you check in 5 to 10 minutes out, or earlier.....

I also just adore FBOs who have a snooze room in a noisy part of the FBO where you're guaranteed not to get any sleep....

Any FBO with DTN as their weather computer also should step into the modern times. That system sucks.

And my all time favorite... When you call the FBO a few miles out and ask them to park your airplane where they won't have to tow you, and find the airplane in another spot in the north forty with the nosewheel steering disonnected.... All this occurs after you voluntarily park there and walk 5 miles to the FBO to avoid having your airplane moved.

BTW... When I get the crew car to get lunch, I always look for guys who might be behind me in the line for one. I've met quite a few good folks doing this and have always enjoyed the company of another bored pilot waiting on pax. You guys might want to try it also.

 

[NJAowner]

Double tips

And then there are the times when I (as a frac owner) tip the line guys (usually for loading the luggage to/from the car on the ramp - and a quite larger tip than the pilots give) and the NJA pilots give a tip as well. I have never seen the double tip turned down.

On a different front, at the small-ish FBO at my local airport last year (a nameless airport but with an 80 year old owner who personally drives the runway everyday and built the runway himself with a bulldozer), we had that Northeast blizzard and they dug out our cars prior to arrival which the snow plow plowed under with the results of 24" of snow. Quite appreciated, and since we came in late at night I drove back a few days later to personally deliver a significant (and appreciated and well deserved) tip. This FBO always provides great service (but not a$$ kissing) and we always appreciate it.

But, an FBO, like many, is a service industry. I spent many years valet parking cars for the same individuals at a horse track in the summers. If you provide extra service, it is many times appreciated. If you keep giving the "extra service" to those who appreciate you, it can keep growing. We had many a "client" who gave us $20 or $50 per visit, several times per week, to be greeted with a smile, parked in front and promptly, and given a 50 cent program when they arrived. Easier to park the car of a $20 man than 10 $2 men. But everyone got a good minimum level of service and respect. My bossess who spent many years developing the clientele made over $100K per year, mostly cash, for 9 months work parking cars at 2 racetracks. It makes you wonder, but I made over $1k per week in college in the summers working with them. It is all about the service and the appearance of "feeling special".

 

[skyking1976]

While were in the mode of giving props to FBO's, Sun Air out in KCMA went over and above the call of duty the other day.

Our passengers had requested a certain soft drink which we didn't have on board. No sooner had we placed our order with the young lady behind the counter, our passengers called and said they would arrive at the airport in 20 minutes. The FBO did not have our drinks on hand, so without skipping a beat, an FBO employee was headed out of the parking lot and down to the nearest convenience store.

Not only did we have our drinks on the airplane with 5 minutes to spare, they were nice and cold too. Thanks a million to the wonderful people at Sun Air Camarillo, CA. WELL DONE!

SK

 

[NJA Capt]

The magnetic door lock is there so that Joe Blow can't walk out onto the ramp and mess with your aircraft. You have to come up with something better than that.

How about the locks that keep the pilots on the secure ramp side from getting into the building?

We put the chocks under the tires so you don't have to engage the brakes.

Engaging the brakes is in the shutdown checklist and keeps us from running over you while you put the chocks in. His point was to ask the pilots to release the brakes before trying to tow it.

Back in the old days (to me ), maybe 1 out of 200 crews would tip line guys. Now line guys get PO'd if EVERY pilot doesn't tip them. Go figure.....

 

[AV8R4]

I don't expect a tip every time I step on the ramp. I expect some gratitude for keeping you out of trouble.

I am not knocking checklists. When you shut the engines down and I give you the sign that you have been chocked, release the brake. That was my point.

 

[Flying Illini]

whether tipping or not, a thankyou and a smile to the line guys (or ladies), goes a long way. I don't tip very often, but I ALWAYS say thankyou, especially as you walk out the door with your pax on the way to the airplane. What annoys me are pilot who feel that everything should be done for them and then don't even say thankyou to whomever helped them out. Carry your own coffee pot inside and ask where you can brew some more...98% of the time, someone will say, "let me take that, I'll have it brought out to your airplane." Now you don't look like a jerk for demanding coffee and they are happier to help you out because of it.
If you don't want to tip for standard service, that's fine (I don't), but a thankyou and a smile goes a long way. Everybody likes to be recognized for a job well done. I feel better when my pax get off and thank us for a great flight (no matter what the landing looked like! ) but when they get off without a word, you feel like they don't appreciate the service that was provided.

off the subject but a pet peeve of mine. If somebody holds a door for you, SAY THANKYOU! Man that pisses me off when you go out of your way to help someone and they don't even recognize your effort.

 

[NJAowner]

Thank you

A thank you and a smile goes a long way. It shows appreciation and is better than a small tip.

In all aspects of life, it is amazing how far a "thank you" willget you. It seems to have been lost. I hav esworn that I will never be too important, rich or busy to say thank you and everyone in my office knows I say it often.

 

[EngineOut]

FL 350: The magnetic door lock is there so that Joe Blow can't walk out onto the ramp and mess with your aircraft. You have to come up with something better than that.

Skyking 1976: We put the chocks under the tires so you don't have to engage the brakes. The trash doesn't get picked up because you are probably a bad tipper.

Flying Illini: No, it's because you guys trash the cars and then we get stuck cleaning up the mess. You want a free ride and don't have the manners to put a little fuel in the car that you got for FREE. It beats getting a cab, which would cost you much more than a few gallons of fuel. Think about it.

Let me see if I can reverse the situations that you all are describing.

WE fuel your planes. WE wash your dishes. WE provide you with free transportation in the form of a crew car. WE get your ice, coffee and papers. WE provide you with ground power. WE throw your trash out. WE make sure that your passengers transportation is waiting upon their arrival.

YOU don't buy any fuel (not in all cases). YOU trash the crew cars. YOU keep the crew cars out for periods exceeding two hours. YOU bring the crew car back with no fuel in it. YOU have kept others from using the crew car because you were late bringing it back. YOU get all of the services that you have requested, most of which are free and then you have the nerve to say you've been mistreated. Wow! Oh yeah and thanks for the tip!!!!

I dispatch at a Fractional. A month or so ago, I had a crew tell me how wonderfully they were treated by a TAC-AIR FBO (I don't remember where now). No hangar space, it was cold, forecast freezing rain...the FBO came in 2+ hours prior to an early morning departure (unrequested) when there was a heavy frost (instead of the freezing rain). One of the line-guys completely deiced the aircraft with an aluminum bucket (or two) full of glycol and had the aircraft warm and ready to go before the crew's showtime.

I ask my boss if there is anything we can do for the FBO...his response: "we pay 'em, don't we? That's their reward." WTF? I called Pizza Hut and ordered 5 large Pizzas, wings, and pop to be delivered to them and paid for it myself. It was FAR less expensive than the hassle I would have had if that trip was delayed. My house of cards would have tumbled.

Moral: Your exceptional service will be rewarded, and sometimes by someone you may not expect.

 

[Stearmandriver]

FBO ramp monkeys that try to make you park tail-to-the-wind. Not a problem in an Embraer....

Well then maybe they've changed something in the Legacy... but I doubt it since that's an A1E engine too. You must just have never seen more than about 20kts up the pipe, 'cause more than that will definitely cause problems, even on our 145XR's. The problem isn't necessarily a hot start but a hung start... though I suppose it could GET hot if you didn't realize it was hanging and abort the start sequence.

Joe

 

[Flying Illini]

NJAowner,
Good for you. It seems you already know how far saying "thankyou" will get you.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Well then maybe they've changed something in the Legacy... but I doubt it since that's an A1E engine too. You must just have never seen more than about 20kts up the pipe, 'cause more than that will definitely cause problems, even on our 145XR's. The problem isn't necessarily a hot start but a hung start... though I suppose it could GET hot if you didn't realize it was hanging and abort the start sequence.

Joe

I didn't realize the Legacy was prone to that sort of thing. I've got almost 2500 hours in ERJs and only one hung start (not tailwind related that I know of, but maybe). Hmmmm. I'll keep that in mind for sure. I thought the word on the smaller piped jets like the Slowtation and the Beeshi Jet was a hot start. That's what I was told when I flew them so I avoided tailwind starts like the plague (still do, but only out of habit I guess).

 

[FL350]

FL 350: The magnetic door lock is there so that Joe Blow can't walk out onto the ramp and mess with your aircraft. You have to come up with something better than that.

My objection is not to the doors being locked. My objection is to the ridiculous measures a pilot must go through to get someone to unlock the door.

I didn't mean for the thread to turn into a line guy/gal gripe session.

How many of you tip line guys? I have to say that it is not soemthing I do often. The company does not reimburse us for it and I have never seen a line guy do anything that wasn't in his job descrition. In addition, the FBO where we are based pay there guys like $10/hr. plus benefits. It's not like they are waiters making $2.50/hr and depend on tips to pay bills.

 

[English]

I'd tip line guys when they loaded or unloaded passenger bags. The only other times I'd tip would be in Mexico (tip early and often) or if they went out of their way. The instances when someone would go run an errand for me, give me a ride somewhere, those times I'd tip. But, I never tipped for just bringing out the ice, coffee, papers and refueling.