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An interesting MESA Comment . . .

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wooferdog

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Posts
125
The following is a rather interesting comment regarding Mesa, taken right from the weekley PlaneBusiness.com newsletter.

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One more Mesa-related tidbit for you this week. We heard this week that Mesa has apparently been booking all the Embraer 145 simulator training time it can get its hands on in both Orlando and Wilmington. And what about those 69 jets that ExpressJet flies for Continental? Yep. They're 145s.
_____


Didn't we suspect this? I might point-out that her sources are very credible.
 
Mesa is bidding on this as well as the NW Airlink flying. Trust me, they are in full speed to expand thier operations at any expense. This is why I was suposed to go to XJT, and I decided not to. I would only get furloughed in a year. Thank you Mr Ornstein for dragging down the regional industry.
 
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but NW doesnt have any ERJ `145's. And I think its a bit early for Mesa to be booking sim times for 69 Rjs that CAL and XJT havent made their decision on.
 
wooferdog said:
The following is a rather interesting comment regarding Mesa, taken right from the weekley PlaneBusiness.com newsletter.

_____
One more Mesa-related tidbit for you this week. We heard this week that Mesa has apparently been booking all the Embraer 145 simulator training time it can get its hands on in both Orlando and Wilmington. And what about those 69 jets that ExpressJet flies for Continental? Yep. They're 145s.
_____


Didn't we suspect this? I might point-out that her sources are very credible.

I believe that all of the ERJ guys and gals being displaced to the freedom certificate have to do a checkride and loft agian as it is a new certificate. thats a lot of pointless training, but i would bet that is what it is.
 
J and E's Daddy said:
Mesa is bidding on this as well as the NW Airlink flying. Trust me, they are in full speed to expand thier operations at any expense. This is why I was suposed to go to XJT, and I decided not to. I would only get furloughed in a year. Thank you Mr Ornstein for dragging down the regional industry.


Believe me, I am no Ornstein fan and would never work for Mesa, but aren't we as a pilot group to blame just the same? Nobody is forcing us to fly for these ridiculous rates/work rules. We are the ones that continue to undercut und underbid our fellow brothers and sisters regardless of where we work. At some point, and I hope this happens here at XJ, we have to decide that this profession is not worth the compensation that we are receiving. I remember graduating college several years ago, where friends of mine that majored in computer technology were getting entry level jobs making between 40-50k. If we find a job that starts at 25k we say, "hey, well that ain't too bad, it'll get better, besides I'm flyin' a jet!" Where has that gotten us?

It all starts at the very beginning when Mr. Joe Pilot takes his first fly in his C-152. Somehow, the education about knowing what you are worth and the consequences of accepting these wages/work rules and their impact need to be instilled early on. The lure of the "shiny jet" is strong, especially when you're 21 years old without a care in the world.

Until we know what we're worth and until we get equal representation from a union group that represents us as a whole, this "race to the bottom" will continue.

just my 2 cents
 
pilot772 said:
I believe that all of the ERJ guys and gals being displaced to the freedom certificate have to do a checkride and loft agian as it is a new certificate. thats a lot of pointless training, but i would bet that is what it is.

This is correct. Way to early to be thinking about the Express jet flying. I can't believe someone was stupid enough to even write it. -Bean
 
n25na said:
[/u][/color]

Believe me, I am no Ornstein fan and would never work for Mesa, but aren't we as a pilot group to blame just the same? Nobody is forcing us to fly for these ridiculous rates/work rules. We are the ones that continue to undercut und underbid our fellow brothers and sisters regardless of where we work. At some point, and I hope this happens here at XJ, we have to decide that this profession is not worth the compensation that we are receiving. I remember graduating college several years ago, where friends of mine that majored in computer technology were getting entry level jobs making between 40-50k. If we find a job that starts at 25k we say, "hey, well that ain't too bad, it'll get better, besides I'm flyin' a jet!" Where has that gotten us?

It all starts at the very beginning when Mr. Joe Pilot takes his first fly in his C-152. Somehow, the education about knowing what you are worth and the consequences of accepting these wages/work rules and their impact need to be instilled early on. The lure of the "shiny jet" is strong, especially when you're 21 years old without a care in the world.

Until we know what we're worth and until we get equal representation from a union group that represents us as a whole, this "race to the bottom" will continue.

just my 2 cents

Most correct thing ever posted.
 
Very correct, and it was JO that said he still pays his pilots too much money! Why? Because he says he can still fill up new hire class each time! There was a time when PDT FA's were making more money then Mesa FO's!! Plus, Just look at there CRJ 900 pay rates, whew thats sad! I got an FO in my Dash 8 that pulling in more cash the the Mesa 900 FO. Now thats said!
But like he said, He can keep filling classes! We are our worst enemy!
 
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WSurf said:
Very correct, and it was JO that said he still pays his pilots too much money! Why? Because he says he can still fill up new hire class each time! There was a time when PDT FA's were making more money then Mesa FO's!! Plus, Just look at there CRJ 900 pay rates, whew thats said! I got an FO in my Dash 8 that pulling in more cash the the Mesa 900 FO. Now thats said!
But like he said, He can keep filling classes! We are our worst enemy!

You can't even spell "sad" and you think you should be paid more? Get an education first.
 
DirkkDiggler said:
You can't even spell "sad" and you think you should be paid more? Get an education first.

Oh boy. Watch out! We've got the English police in here.

Are you a Mesa pilot? Don't be offended by the mispelled words. Try to look past that and understand what he is trying to say. He's absolutely right.

You Mesa people (and many other regional pilots) don't get it, do you? As long as the regionals expand the majors won't. Do you want to fly at a regional for the rest of you career? As long as regional pilot pay rates are embarassingly low major pilot salaries will continue to drop.

I know...you will just get you 1000 PIC and got to Southwest or FedEx, right? Good luck to you and the other 10,000 guys trying to do that.
 
n25na said:
[/U][/COLOR]

Believe me, I am no Ornstein fan and would never work for Mesa, but aren't we as a pilot group to blame just the same?

just my 2 cents

Sorry, but I disagree.

You can blame the pilots all you want, but it is the nature of the beast that will not change, and probably that you participated in. There will always be pilots interested in upward mobility. You can call it SJS all you want, but if you want to leave your regional and go to a major, well, that is SJS too.

The solution lies not in blaming individual pilots for trying to get ahead. The solution lies in pilot groups taking a stand and improving their work environment. Its called a union. Its called ALPA.

And before your tell me about your frustations with ALPA, remember they made this a respectable job with high pay to begin with. What they are currently doing at your airline is up to you and your pilot group's involvement.

Good luck with your misplaced blame that will fix nothing.
 
n25na said:
[/u][/color]

Believe me, I am no Ornstein fan and would never work for Mesa, but aren't we as a pilot group to blame just the same? Nobody is forcing us to fly for these ridiculous rates/work rules.
Until we know what we're worth and until we get equal representation from a union group that represents us as a whole, this "race to the bottom" will continue.

just my 2 cents


You are right. WE need a union that will represent us ALL. All this MESA bashing is more worn out than Rosie O'Donnells fork. Plus their contract is up in 2006. All I read on here is bashing of our own company, I hate my job, my life sucks, and of course....Mesa sucks. In fact everything sucks. Great attitude to have. :confused:
 
Don't forget XJT STILL has priority of those 69 airplanes until next year. If they find a way to utilize them in a different capacity they can. It's not a done deal those planes are leaving their fleet.
 
DirkkDiggler said:
You can't even spell "sad" and you think you should be paid more? Get an education first.

Fixed it for you! But I guess you just don't get it!
Race to the bottom continues!
 
Fly-n-hi said:
Oh boy. Watch out! We've got the English police in here.

Are you a Mesa pilot? Don't be offended by the mispelled words. Try to look past that and understand what he is trying to say. He's absolutely right.

You Mesa people (and many other regional pilots) don't get it, do you? As long as the regionals expand the majors won't. Do you want to fly at a regional for the rest of you career? As long as regional pilot pay rates are embarassingly low major pilot salaries will continue to drop.

I know...you will just get you 1000 PIC and got to Southwest or FedEx, right? Good luck to you and the other 10,000 guys trying to do that.

And you're going to change that, How?!?

This cycle will continue and there is nothing anyone can do about it but watch and weep.

Or better yet, accept it and make the best of it.

Eventually, when "regionals" are flying EMB190's pay and schedules will improve at the regionals, and maybe these large regional operators will merge with the mainlines again, as they have before when small airlines got to big.
 
Just like the good times never last, the bad times won't either. It seems rather difficult to believe, since they industry has been in such steep decline since 2000.

Airlines' current leverage against pilots is not all that different than the "dot-com" bubble or the so called housing bubble in that it's bound to burst. They are sticking it to us while they can. Sticking while the sticking is good, if you will. When the P and L turns to black for them and their competition, they'll have the favor returned as our bubble starts to build.
 
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jetfo said:
And you're going to change that, How?!?

This cycle will continue and there is nothing anyone can do about it but watch and weep.

Or better yet, accept it and make the best of it.

Eventually, when "regionals" are flying EMB190's pay and schedules will improve at the regionals, and maybe these large regional operators will merge with the mainlines again, as they have before when small airlines got to big.

Yeah, look at Mesa's pay rates on the CRJ-900. Oh wait, bad example.

BTW, which regionals are getting EMB-190's? You better hope the EMB-190's come to the majors because if they go you the pay will never get better.

You will never raise the bar.

Also, which small airlines that "got too big" were merged into the mainline? Would you care to give some examples? How about Independence?

We're not talking about seperate small airlines. We're talking about regional feeders for mainline. When airlines like Mesa undercut everyone else that pretty much guarantees that at least one regional will always exist.

But your right. You better make the best of it because you're gonna be there for a long time.
 
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El Ocho said:
Sorry, but I disagree.

You can blame the pilots all you want, but it is the nature of the beast that will not change, and probably that you participated in. There will always be pilots interested in upward mobility. You can call it SJS all you want, but if you want to leave your regional and go to a major, well, that is SJS too.

The solution lies not in blaming individual pilots for trying to get ahead. The solution lies in pilot groups taking a stand and improving their work environment. Its called a union. Its called ALPA.

And before your tell me about your frustations with ALPA, remember they made this a respectable job with high pay to begin with. What they are currently doing at your airline is up to you and your pilot group's involvement.

Good luck with your misplaced blame that will fix nothing.

I believe that is exactly what I'm saying. However, where is the ALPA unity if one ALPA carrier is underbidding another one for the work and all the while we make less and less income just to keep this job? At some point the individual, has to decide that enough is enough and either take a stand or unfortunately seek another profession. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. I'm not blaming or frustrated with ALPA at all, it lies on the shoulders of all of us to do something about, whether you're ALPA or not.
 
i like how kit darby's air inc magazine had expressjet on the cover last month as the carrier to work for and this month its mesa power.....

thanks mesa for the furlough thats gonna get shoved up my ass in a yr
 
Hey Apache 5, why do you think that mesa would get that contract? Skywest, CHQ and many others are going to bid on it. If you want to be mad at some one you should be mad at Cal management. If your thinking its because Mesa is looking for ERJ sim time. Your wrong - that has nothing to do with Cal flying
 
Cloudroller said:
Hey Apache 5, why do you think that mesa would get that contract? Skywest, CHQ and many others are going to bid on it. If you want to be mad at some one you should be mad at Cal management. If your thinking its because Mesa is looking for ERJ sim time. Your wrong - that has nothing to do with Cal flying

I disagree, yeah you can blaime CAL all you want but the real problem is the regional airlines that keep undercutting each other to secure more business. I'm not necessarily a Duane Woerth fan but his article in the latest ALPA magazine is spot on regarding this issue...
 
EngineOut: "Just like the good times never last, the bad times won't either. It seems rather difficult to believe, since they industry has been in such steep decline since 2000."

"Airlines' current leverage against pilots is not all that different than the "dot-com" bubble or the so called housing bubble in that it's bound to burst. They are sticking it to us while they can. Sticking while the sticking is good, if you will. When the P and L turns to black for them and their competition, they'll have the favor returned as our bubble starts to build. "

Unfortunately, the industry is not just in a low part of its normal cycle. The entire industry is fundamentally changing, primarily due to both the advent of the code share, and our own improved safety record.

Unions once upon a time had figured out how to guard all their flying through scope. If management wanted the job done cheaper, they either negotiated with their own pilots, or they had to start a brand new airline from scratch. In an age when airplanes routinely fell out of the sky with extremely costly consequences, it was in management's best financial interest to attract and retain the most experienced pilots possible. So they negotiated the best rates they could to attract and keep the best pilots possible.

Majors piloting jobs became very desireable, and the industry paywise became very lopsided as pilots were willing to work for peanuts at entry level timebuilding jobs, with the promise of big riches down the road. A perfect pyramid scheme was building.

Fast forward to today's environment. The majors have figured out that they could incrementally increase outsourcing through the use of the code share. They started farming out as much flying as possible to pilots willing to work for peanuts, right under ALPA's nose. Unfortunately, the DRASTICALLY improved safety record of the past two decades means that they no longer have to court the best of the best anymore...modern automated cockpits mean that just about anyone with a couple years experience can keep an airplane out of a smoking hole in the ground. So there's no longer any incentive on management's part to keep increasing pay.

On the pilot's side of the equation, pilots still keep signing up to fly for peanuts, because they believe it's just a normal market cycle dip, and the pot of gold will eventually be waiting for them once they have their 1000 121 pic, and the industry picks up again. The problem is, that pot of gold is getting smaller and smaller, and fewer and fewer pilots are able to reach it!

Basically, it's capitalism at work. The market always finds a way to reach an equilibrium, and we see that at work here. Much as we pilots want that major airline pay to stay up in the stratosphere, major airline pilots have routinely made the list of overpaid professions when considering normal suppy and demand forces, and the market is finally balancing itself. The problem is, new pilots at the regional level and below should be starting to see higher compensation levels but aren't, precisely because of the above mentality.

Many pilots still believe things will return to the way they were, and are willing to "just take a lowball job offer at MESA or whereever, for the quick upgrade and on to that major job, or ...just take a paycut to get the new planes on the property so I can get my quick upgrade, etc." But there is no major job to go to anymore. There may be some form of major job in the future, but it won't look anything like it used to. It will only be marginally better than top regional positions. So we all need to get used to the new market, and be ready to stand up and say, "my time and knowledge and skills are worth a minimum of $xxx, and I won't work for any less." I think once this mentality starts changing, regional compensation will finally reach some sort of equilibrium at a living wage.
 
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n25na said:
At some point the individual, has to decide that enough is enough and either take a stand or unfortunately seek another profession.

Even more unfortunately, the individual will probably have to take a stand and seek another profession.
 
???

Fly-n-hi said:
You Mesa people (and many other regional pilots) don't get it, do you? As long as the regionals expand the majors won't. Do you want to fly at a regional for the rest of you career? As long as regional pilot pay rates are embarassingly low major pilot salaries will continue to drop.

Then ALL of us regional pilots should just rise up and quit! Then we will FORCE those bastards to hire us at the majors. That will teach them!

Do you REALLY believe it is as simple as that? Wow, what an active imagination you have there. Honestly, some of you guys amaze me. You must have WAY to much free time on your hands.

Spiff:cool:
 

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