AMR pilots say not so fast

[flaps30]

looks like a headline from a year ago, just insert United.


Associated Press
Airline Union May Seek Contract Changes
Tuesday April 8, 8:52 am ET
Union Leaders for American Airline Workers to Ask for Changes in Tentative Deal, Report Says


DALLAS (AP) -- Leaders of unions representing American Airlines pilots, flight attendants and ground workers are running into resistance from their members over tentative contract concessions geared to help keep the airline out of bankruptcy, according to a published report.

The Wall Street Journal reported in its Tuesday editions that union leaders are going back to management to ask for changes.

The newspaper said that complaints involve the six-year length of the contracts and the minimal pay raises of 1.5 percent that would begin next year.

"The sense I am getting is that this (tentative agreement) will not pass unless the six-year duration is shortened" and a provision to revisit pay rates before the contract runs out is added, Capt. Tom Frazer, chairman of the Allied Pilots Association's Miami base, said in an e-mail to pilots Sunday.

"It's not pretty. But it does represent perhaps the best chance we have at this time for keeping American Airlines out of bankruptcy," John Ward, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, told his members, the newspaper reported.

American spokesman Bruce Hicks said the company wasn't discussing where things are in the process.

"The process is under way," he told The Associated Press. "They're in the process of meeting with their membership in a series of presentations. The process continues. The ratification vote is due early next week."

Hicks said the company needs all three unions to ratify the tentative agreements.

Under the tentative agreements, about 2,500 pilots, 2,400 flight attendants and 1,100 to 1,400 ground workers likely will lose their jobs. Remaining employees will work longer hours and get less vacation.

The deals call for $660 million in cuts from pilots, $620 million from ground workers and $340 from flight attendants. Management and nonunion employees also would take pay cuts totaling $180 million of the $1.8 billion in annual savings.

Fort Worth, Texas-based AMR, American's parent company, has lost nearly $5.3 billion in the past two years and has faced increasing competition from low-fare carriers.

 

[captjim]

I agree with those guys. This deal would in all reality end around 2011. It's one thing to help out the company in these hard times, but in 2 to 3 years AA will be making money hand over fist, and the workers will be still giving concessions. No way, thats a bunch of bull.

 

[General Lee]

Flaps30,

I know that we at Delta are looking over the books (Dalpa analysts anyway) and we will have something soon for management. I know most of the pilots here are also in favor of Comair and ASA also taking some cuts----to share the pain. Hey, they want to be "Delta Pilots"---right? Well, welcome over boys!!!
I am sure the company will come knocking on your doors soon, too.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sleepy]

Flaps30,

I know that we at Delta are looking over the books (Dalpa analysts anyway) and we will have something soon for management. I know most of the pilots here are also in favor of Comair and ASA also taking some cuts----to share the pain. Hey, they want to be "Delta Pilots"---right? Well, welcome over boys!!!
I am sure the company will come knocking on your doors soon, too.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Ahhhh General, the same old flame bait. I'm sure that all of the pilots at DAL are in favor of more than just a pay cut for the ASA and Comair employees. Right?

 

[wil]

General Lee- Now your starting to sound like Boss Hogg!! Just what kind of concessions would you like? I am, at this writing, waiting with a 2 hour call out on reserve (away from my wife). If we had a long call 6/12 hour notice I would be home right now (4 hour drive from DFW). I am being paid a substandard wage no matter how you slice it! When a 2 year FO at DAL on your smallest equipment makes twice as much as I do as PIC! Last time I checked the 121 regs my responsibilities are the same as those in the leftseat at mainline. Our pay and benefits are already concessionary! Be glad we have offered employment to your furloughees. As one of the few units of Delta to be making money you should just say, "thank you"

 

[resistance]

Why is it every time a post comes out about a different airline you Delta guys hijack the thread? Go post something about Delta and rant and rave but stop hijacking these threads with you constant and consistant BS about DALPA. Start your own posts!!

Sorry if I sound out of line but we are all tried of course deviation.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

looks like a headline from a year ago, just insert United. Wonder when Delta, NWA, and CAL will take their cuts?

Why is it every time a post comes out about a different airline you Delta guys hijack the thread? Go post something about Delta and rant and rave but stop hijacking these threads with you constant and consistant BS about DALPA.

Since the orignal post included a question about Delta, I woudn't describe this as a hijacking.

I wish you success!

 

[General Lee]

Wil,

I know you guys are paid less than we are, and I was probably paid a lot less than you when I flew the E120 awhile back. We at mainline just think that we shouldn't be the only ones paying for everything. How about everyone chipping in something? We fought hard, just like you are doing at ASA, for a great contract. We have the only large union at Delta, and there are 50,000 other employees that have NO union--but the company is trying to avoid asking them for anything so that they won't get a union. It is unfair, and yes---we probably need some sort of pay cut, but everyone should have to chip in---something. We know you have been a profitable portion of this airline---but the money we have been burning to stay alive throughout this mess was brought in by Mainline in the late '90's. (when we were super profitable) IF we had not made that much money---management would not have been able to buy all of your RJ's. You guys at ASA/Comair have enjoyed super growth over the last two years, and we at mainline have shrunk and lost almost 1260 pilots by May. The pilots at ASA have been supportive, but the Comair MEC has not.
This has not been a pleasant experience for anyone---but we shouldn't have to be the only ones to sacrifice-----everyone should have to chip in to make this company thrive again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

Ok, we ASA pilots will give DAL the same cuts in our retirement program that the mainline pilots have to take. We will also agree to change our PWA to match yours after you accept management's proposed work rule concessions. It will be hard, but we will have to use the same trip and duty rigs, vacation pay, sick pay, disability insurance program, night pay, etc. Also, if you guys get the CR7, we will agree to fly it for the same pay that mainline accepts. Would that be fair enough?

 

[wil]

General Lee-

I understand that we all need to pull together, but what more concessions do you want from ASA? As I posted, our pay is concessionary, our work rules stink and we have no retirement but a substandard 401(k). I'm sorry to say this but mainline is the problem! You wanted United plus and here we are. I don't know what the solution is but I know that all things being equal you are over compensated and we are under compensated. It pains me to say this as I would love to wear the double-breasted jacket! The company could fly me more per day I guess- the ol' 6 leg day is getting too easy and I can always pack 2 meals! Everyday SWA and the rest grow stronger and Delta mainline and the rest grow weaker! You boys better get your act together and quick! Like I said, I don't think we should hire outside until all furloughs have a job opportunity here. Of course, I'm sure there are many that would turn up their nose at the idea. So in short- no to concessions. All ther best-

 

[Heavy Set]

Wil,

You need to separate Delta from UAL and American. American bought TWA - a "Titantic" mistake. And now they are paying for it... UAL has had serious problems since before 9/11 and should be gone by now from a financial perspective. The SARS sitution is helping them.

Delta has always been a money-maker. Sure, Delta has to compete better against the LCCs, but it is not in the same boat as American - we are not talking apples-to-apples here. Yes, some pay cuts will be necessary, but NOT to the same degree.

It is inherently unfair to pinpoint one labor group to take the entire burden. General Lee's assessment regarding management's intention to not upset non-union groups (for fear that they may want to unionize later) is absolutely CORRECT. I have heard people talk about maybe a proportional reduction...

Everyone should consider this fact - keeping Delta's wages relatively "high" should be a priority because every pilot group will use it as a basis for negotiation. If Delta's wages decline, then you can expect a further decline for all airlines................

Yeah, General Lee can be a bit sarcastic at times, but his analysis is pretty good....

 

[PROFLYER]

General Lee

You seem to want to cut off your nose to spite your face. The problem with asking ASA/Comair (or any CDI carrier) for concessions is that you will widen the difference in operating cost with mainline. It should be your hope that DCI carriers increase their wages (thus increasing costs), so that the cost gap between DCI and DAL mainline gets smaller. When that happens, it becomes more advantagous to use mainline with DCI. This is good for everyone: furloughs come back, DCI carriers improved QOL, and for many of us an opportunity to advance to DAL mainline.

If CMR/ASA are required to give concessions, you will be giving a bigger incentive to expand DCI instead of mainline. It's too bad we can't work together to come up with a mutually beneficial relationship between pilot groups. This kind of talk certainly won't help foster that type of relationship. There are a lot of people on all sides that need to keep their attitudes in check. Hopefully we can all come together on this one.

 

[General Lee]

PROFLYER,

Delta cannot just expand DCI WITHOUT consent from Dalpa. There are limitations to your growth---and that is tied to our growth. You cannot fly more than 43% of our flying. IF they want more RJ's---they will come to Dalpa for help. If we took proportional cuts (to "save" mama Delta)---then how would that widen the gap? IF we both took cuts---we'd be the same, right? Most likely we at mainline would take much larger cuts---probably 15% to your 5%. I think our differences would become closer and closer if we took those cuts---resulting in exactly what you said. That doesn't mean you cannot contribute. Do you think everyone at Mainline makes $300,000 a year? Only the top 777 pilots. Sure, the rest of us do very well compared to other airlines, but most of us (the bottom 2/3's) have fallen from airplane to airplane---getting pay cuts along the way. Now we probably will be getting another 15% taken---which is fine if it saves "mama Delta"---but everyone should take a hit---including FLT Attendants, Mechanics, Management, and DCI. I don't care if it is as small as 5%----that shows we are all a big team---a loving family. But if you had your way---only the "super rich" pilots should take a big cut. Heavy Set---even with his Oxfordian Speak--said it well when he said Delta is not in the same boat as American and United. Delta never bought a TWA, never lost a plane on 9-11, and wasn't tanking before 9-11. Sure, we may be paid a little high now compared to AA and UA---but we are not the same. But, if we have to take a hit---we all should do it--in some way or another.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Publishers]

Proflyer

Proflyer makes one of these opportunistic approaches to labor negotiations. If the gap becomes closer, then all is well so DCI and mainline will be closer together.

Let's look at the fact that the very nature of the small-- albeit they are not small anymore-- connection carrier was to provide service at sufficiently less cost as to make it available to communities and stage lengths not practical with mainline equipment or costs.

What you would propose is that we narrow that gap which is contrary to the nature of the beast and why it originated in the first place.

In a way, it would be easier to build up a Comair and just let Delta fall away in certain areas. With any success with the LCC like song, Delta in effect could become the small part of the total.

This industry is being reformated right in front of your eyes. As I said in another post, UAL may have been the leader going up, well they will be the leader going down as well.

Trying to hold against the current tide at the regional level, not going to happen.

 

[sleepy]

PROFLYER,

Delta cannot just expand DCI WITHOUT consent from Dalpa. There are limitations to your growth---and that is tied to our growth. You cannot fly more than 43% of our flying. IF they want more RJ's---they will come to Dalpa for help. If we took proportional cuts (to "save" mama Delta)---then how would that widen the gap? IF we both took cuts---we'd be the same, right? Most likely we at mainline would take much larger cuts---probably 15% to your 5%. I think our differences would become closer and closer if we took those cuts---resulting in exactly what you said. That doesn't mean you cannot contribute. Do you think everyone at Mainline makes $300,000 a year? Only the top 777 pilots. Sure, the rest of us do very well compared to other airlines, but most of us (the bottom 2/3's) have fallen from airplane to airplane---getting pay cuts along the way. Now we probably will be getting another 15% taken---which is fine if it saves "mama Delta"---but everyone should take a hit---including FLT Attendants, Mechanics, Management, and DCI. I don't care if it is as small as 5%----that shows we are all a big team---a loving family. But if you had your way---only the "super rich" pilots should take a big cut. Heavy Set---even with his Oxfordian Speak--said it well when he said Delta is not in the same boat as American and United. Delta never bought a TWA, never lost a plane on 9-11, and wasn't tanking before 9-11. Sure, we may be paid a little high now compared to AA and UA---but we are not the same. But, if we have to take a hit---we all should do it--in some way or another.

Bye Bye---General Lee

The real problem General is that we are not all "a big team". The fact is that all of the various groups at DAL hate each other. FA's and Pilots. Pilots and Mechs. Rampers and Gate Agents. Mainline, DT, and WO's. We are all out for ourselves, and anything that one group gets or gives is too much for the other group. Management likes it that way, and they could care less what happens to any employee group. Management has their bankruptcy-proof retirement in place, now they will go about the business of breaking the largest union on the property for good. If you don't give them what they want, the bankruptcy judge will (look at AAA and U).

BTW, after you guy's got your U + 1%, I don't recall any calls for pay raises at the WO's coming from DAL pilots. So, just because your division of DAL is doing poorly, and ours is making money, why should we all of a sudden need to give one for the "big family"?

In a message to ASA employees from our President, he stated that we are in sound financial shape, and do not expect any downsizing at this time, so why would he put that information out if he was about to ask our employees for pay concessions?

 

[Russ]

Its disingenious of you to look for WO pilots to help share the pain in the manner you ask. Delta pilots gave token support at sharing the wealth to its regionals when times were good. A five percent cut of a 120's FO pay is cutting into meat, the same to a D pilot means much different.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,

First of all, not everyone hates each other, come on now. I don't hate ASA pilots and rampers---I don't even hate the majority of Comair pilots. Most of us hate Comair's MEC, and some of his cronies. That's about it. As far as "sharing the pain"---I think that is a logical thing to do. You said you did not get major raises when we got or UAL + 1% contract. You know as well as I do that we negotiate separately. And, just because your portion of the company is doing well right now, the RJ's that DELTA bought for you was bought from the large amount of money Mainline made in the late 90's. We were the ones pulling in most of the cash then, and a lot of that money is buying your RJ's. To say that you too don't have a vested interest in this company doing well is wrong. The managers are not going to pull this carrier into Chap 11------yes they protected themselves----but they also have a lot to lose if they do. Fred Reid and Joe Kolshack said yesterday in Dallas that they had no intention of going Chap 11.
They said we had enough cash on hand, and more if we needed it. I think they were embarrassed about the Exec Pension thing, and don't want to lose all of the options they have either in a Chap 11. The War is almost over, and the summer flying is around the corner. We will gain back a lot of passengers, and we will watch the other airlines crumble---especially those with lots of Asian flights that are getting hit with SARS. In the mean time, we will give back something to the company---and we might tie it to everyone, including DCI, giving a little. Your DCI president will do whatever Leo says. Let's all give alittle to save MAMA Delta some cash. Do you have a problem with that?

Bye Bye-----General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

Concessions from the regionals is laughable,---absoluetly rediculous. It's good flame bait for this board, but little more.

Come on General, when you have a group that is b-a-r-e-l-y getting by on crackers and cheese, they can't give more...not one bit. You probably made in a month what I made in a year my first year. I still have credit card debt, et. al to pay off from that first year.

I will NOT vote for any concessions, no matter what picture the company paints, I'll GLADLY walk the picket line before I except a pay reduction....I'll say it again, concessions for regional pilots is TOTALLY absurd.

If signifigant concession are forced on us, I'll go tend bar (like in college) make more money, have better benefits, have a "line," and probably less stress.

Concessions!!!! I think I hurt myself laughing....

 

[AA717driver]

Wow!

And I thought the AA pilot group was dicked up! TC

 

[surplus1]

You know as well as I do that we negotiate separately. And, just because your portion of the company is doing well right now, the RJ's that DELTA bought for you was bought from the large amount of money Mainline made in the late 90's.

Like you just said "we negotiate separately." Like you all said earlier and continue to say until you want something from us, we are a "separate company." How come now that we are profitable and you are not you want us to "share the pain". Why should we share your pain? Do you ever and have you ever shared your wealth or for that matter anything else? The answer is NO. You have shared nothing. As a matter of fact all you have ever tried to do is take from us for yourselves.

As you and your friends point out, the Company is not in any particular danger, when compared to others. The only thing wrong is that you people priced yourselves out of the market. You didn't need our help to do that and didn't want it. You also showed little interest when we tried to improve our own lot. You told us then, like you tell us now, "we negotiate separately". So why all of a sudden are you asking us to help you negotiate yourselves back into the market? Go ahead and negotiate separately, like you always have. It's what you do best. Just don't try to negotiate for us. We can do that ourselves.

We were the ones pulling in most of the cash then, and a lot of that money is buying your RJ's.

Do you really believe the garbage you put out or do you just like to antagonise for the fun of it? The RJs that Comair flys are the RJs that Comair bought before Delta bought Comair. Delta didn't buy them for us, Delta bought them from us which, by the way, we didn't ask you to do, didn't want you to do and regret that you did. It happened and we're living with it. You will have to learn to do the same. Just spare me the "we bought your airplanes" crap. You didn't and you know it. Any aircraft that have been ordered for Comair since we were bought can be paid for with the money that WE generate, just like they were paid for before we were acquired.

To say that you too don't have a vested interest in this company doing well is wrong.

Yes, we now have a vested interest in this Company doing well. That is no thanks to Delta pilots. As a matter of fact it is in spite of Delta pilots. The only thing Delta pilots have ever done is try to keep us from having an interest in the Company. Therefore you should keep it in perspective. Our interest is in the Company, not in the Delta pilot group. We are a subsidiary of Delta, Inc., but we are not a subsidiary of the Delta pilots. That's something that seems to escape you and you need to get it straight.

We are contributing to the Company's bottom line and have done so consistently, except for our strike at Comair (from which we have recovered), which was totally unnecessary and cost a lot of money thanks only to a series of bad decisions on the part of Delta management. It was Delta's fault exclusively and a huge waste of the Company's money. Notwithstanding, we are again contributing in a positive way, with profitable operations, positive cash flows and a net gain. We are an asset.

In contrast, your group is not doing well and right now you are not contributing to the bottom line. You therefore are a liability at present. If that liability needs to be reduced, then YOU need to reduce it. When you are contributing again, you can go back to the status quo. There is no need for us to make up any part of your drain on the Company. Actually if it were not for what we contribute, your drain on the bottom line would be far greater than it is and then you would be quite similar to AA.

The positive contributions generated by ASA and Comair are a significant part of why the Company is not doing as poorly as it would be, if we were not around. You should be thanking us instead of always trying to eliminate us or asking us to help pay your way.

YOU need to "give a little" to help the Company, so go ahead and do it and stop trying to make others share your responsibilities, when they are not part of the burden.

If and when our activities represent a drain on the Company's bottom line, that will be the time for us to consider concessions. The fact that YOU are a drain on the Company is certainly not a reason for us to consider doing that. Like you said, "we negotiate separately."

That's the way you wanted it and that's the way you got it. So deal with your own problems and leave us alone to deal with ours. The answer to your final question is YES, I do have a problem with what you propose.