AMF down in BIL

[troll565]

I think you nailed it,
http://www.fltplan8.com/AppCharts/GIFCHARTS/00588VGB_0001.gif
if they stayed on that initial course instead of changing to the final approach course, and than did the missed approach as charted they would climb directly into a 7500' peake in the same area where the wreckage was found, near Feely, about 8 miles southwest of BTM.

If you look at a different non precision chart for the same airport,
http://www.fltplan8.com/AppCharts/GIFCHARTS/00588VDGA_0001.gif
you can see the mountains southwest of the airport that are not shown on the chart for the approach they flew, the FAA picked a hell of a place to put the airport diagram on that chart. Like to see the Jepp charts for these approaches, does AMF use Jepps or NOAA?

Way to go, blame the fcucking pilots when they haven't even been buried yet. Why is every fcucking crash the pilots fault? Get a life.

 

[jparks]

troll565,
i love you man, that is great. Everyone and their fricking ego has to blame the pilots before an investigation even starts. It pisses me off. The pilots were great guys. The best check airman i have ever had.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Grow up jparks and troll565

So.....what? Should we not try to find out what happened? There is a very real chance that by reviewing the situation in the safety of our own homes we can learn from what happened. Even if we are wrong, and the reason for the crash isn't as guessed above at least we can remind our selves to be a little more deligent with our flying. As for letting the proffessionals do it, the NTSB can take a year or more to publish findings. We need to know now. Flights are still being conducted into and out of that airport and if our procedures are flawed then we need to make a change right now and waiting for the NTSB is not an option.

The two of you need to learn how to seperate the pilot from the person and deal with the cold hard truth. The truth is, pilots are to blame for most accidents. It is very rare that an aircraft has a system or combination of systems that fail so catastrophically that the aircraft can't be flown safely. Investigating, analyzing and discussing the cause of an accident is very important, and the implication that the pilot made a mistake does not mean that person is being denigrated in any way. Their deaths, while tragic, can help all of us to become better at our trade. To chalk this up as an accident and not look for a valid explination would be more of disrespectful of their lives.

 

[flx757]

ksu_aviatior,

"Guessing" from the safety of your own home about what "might" have happened in no way whatsoever equates to "investigating, analyzing and discussing the cause of an accident". And there is absolutely no possible way that "reviewing the situation" from the safety of your own home can you learn what happened. No way at all. Explain to me just HOW you are looking for a valid explanation? HOW are you trying to find out what happened? HOW can you possibly "know now" exactly what happened? You can't. And if you can, you should call the Investigator-In-Charge. Let him know "what happened" and what exactly was the probable cause. Save the Board a ton of field work, lab work, investigative resources, time, money and paperwork.

You are simply showing your ignorance of the process and doing no one any good. Once we have the "cold hard truth", then we can "deal with it". The fact that you make stab-in-the-dark guess is about as far from the "cold hard facts" as it gets.

Whether you like it or not, "waiting for the NTSB" is the ONLY option.

 

[threegreen]

I think it's good to wonder what happened - you may not be correct when the final investigation comes out; but in the mean time it may be a good reminder of what to (or not to) do!

 

[threegreen]

duplicate.

 

[SDCFI]

Whether you like it or not, "waiting for the NTSB" is the ONLY option.

While I do agree with this sentiment, keep in mind that without flight recorders, radar data, or witnesses there's a good possibility the NTSB won't be able to determine a probable cause unless an obvious mechanical malfunction can be determined. While speculating for the sake of speculating serves no usefull purpose, examining the "what ifs" of the situation can stimulate critical thinking so that when we find ourselves in a similar circumstance these ideas are in the back of our mind and may help us avoid a similar outcome. For the record I too knew the Training Capt quite well, having lived in the same city for over a year and flying with him twice for recurrent training. The fact that he may have made a mistake that cost him his life only serves to remind me that if it can happen to him it can definately happen to me, and knowing this will hopefully help prevent me from becoming complacent or taking things for granted. Unfortunately we will probably never know exactly what happened up there, but that doesn't mean we can't benefit from the experience it provides.

To my friend and fellow freight dog Carl - RIP my brother, I'm a better person having known and worked with you.

 

[DirtyBeech]

troll565,
i love you man, that is great. Everyone and their fricking ego has to blame the pilots before an investigation even starts. It pisses me off. The pilots were great guys. The best check airman i have ever had.

Nice. I mean really. No one denigrated either pilot. And we all know that if the captain was the best check airman that jparks ever knew, then it's a complete impossibility that a piloting error might have been made. Grow up. What we do know is that the 99 impacted terrain after attempting a non precision approach with a course change at the navaid in a non radar environment. Now really ask yourself what probably happened? Did a gryo fail, or a real emergency occur distracting the pilots? Maybe. I'll stick with the simplest explanation as my guess rather than assuming the plane fell out of the air or a mountain jumped in the way.

I'm sorry that you lost friends who were great people and pilots. I didn't know them, and perhaps that allows me and many others to analyze what happened from a distance. However, if you're going to sit there and tell me to go fvck myself because I looked at an accident, tried to understand what happened, and drew a possible conclusion that might affect how I fly then you might want to choose another profession. If you're saying you don't do the same then you're either a great liar or a complete fool. In any event, the NTSB is not going to submit this thread as evidence in the investigation, and I seriously doubt family members are anxiously waiting for updates in their emails from flightinfo.

Now go mourn for your friends, and when you're done you can pull your head out of your a$$ and realize that no one was disrespecting, or trying to disrespect them. Then go think about what happened (as if you already haven't) and maybe apply it to your flying. It seems to me that the one with the ego problem is you. Or, you could pretend you waited a year for the NTSB report to come out and think it over.

Btw, I would only hope my family and friends would not immediately throw out the possibility of me screwing up if I were to be killed in an airplane accident. I foul up on every flight, and if you're honest with yourself, you do it too. I have no problem admitting that to myself, or having another pilot or check airman or whoever pointing it out either. In time, when you separate your emotions some from the accident you'll realize that I was only stating a guess, and probably a good one given the circumstances, that was drawn after trying to figure out what went wrong.

Trollboy,
shove that lear up you a$$, and perhaps it will help you stop $hitting all over threads.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Good post, DB.

I'm sure these guys wouldn't have wanted a flame war to erupt over all of this. Real classy, troll565.

RIP to the fallen freight brothers.

And condolences to their friends and families.

 

[skyhwk74]

I have a lot of time in this machine. My condolences to the families of the crewmembers involved.

I have some time in 54RP as well. I had the opportunity to meet Carl in '04, I remember him taking some time off to be with his newborn twins. I didn't fly with him, but my rommate at the time did quite a bit and had nothing but good things to say.

"To fly West, my friend, is a flight we all must take for a final check." -AU

Carl and Kyle, Rest in peace gentlemen.