AMF down in BIL

[troll565]

I think you nailed it,
http://www.fltplan8.com/AppCharts/GIFCHARTS/00588VGB_0001.gif
if they stayed on that initial course instead of changing to the final approach course, and than did the missed approach as charted they would climb directly into a 7500' peake in the same area where the wreckage was found, near Feely, about 8 miles southwest of BTM.

If you look at a different non precision chart for the same airport,
http://www.fltplan8.com/AppCharts/GIFCHARTS/00588VDGA_0001.gif
you can see the mountains southwest of the airport that are not shown on the chart for the approach they flew, the FAA picked a hell of a place to put the airport diagram on that chart. Like to see the Jepp charts for these approaches, does AMF use Jepps or NOAA?

Way to go, blame the fcucking pilots when they haven't even been buried yet. Why is every fcucking crash the pilots fault? Get a life.

 

[jparks]

troll565,
i love you man, that is great. Everyone and their fricking ego has to blame the pilots before an investigation even starts. It pisses me off. The pilots were great guys. The best check airman i have ever had.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Grow up jparks and troll565

So.....what? Should we not try to find out what happened? There is a very real chance that by reviewing the situation in the safety of our own homes we can learn from what happened. Even if we are wrong, and the reason for the crash isn't as guessed above at least we can remind our selves to be a little more deligent with our flying. As for letting the proffessionals do it, the NTSB can take a year or more to publish findings. We need to know now. Flights are still being conducted into and out of that airport and if our procedures are flawed then we need to make a change right now and waiting for the NTSB is not an option.

The two of you need to learn how to seperate the pilot from the person and deal with the cold hard truth. The truth is, pilots are to blame for most accidents. It is very rare that an aircraft has a system or combination of systems that fail so catastrophically that the aircraft can't be flown safely. Investigating, analyzing and discussing the cause of an accident is very important, and the implication that the pilot made a mistake does not mean that person is being denigrated in any way. Their deaths, while tragic, can help all of us to become better at our trade. To chalk this up as an accident and not look for a valid explination would be more of disrespectful of their lives.

 

[flx757]

ksu_aviatior,

"Guessing" from the safety of your own home about what "might" have happened in no way whatsoever equates to "investigating, analyzing and discussing the cause of an accident". And there is absolutely no possible way that "reviewing the situation" from the safety of your own home can you learn what happened. No way at all. Explain to me just HOW you are looking for a valid explanation? HOW are you trying to find out what happened? HOW can you possibly "know now" exactly what happened? You can't. And if you can, you should call the Investigator-In-Charge. Let him know "what happened" and what exactly was the probable cause. Save the Board a ton of field work, lab work, investigative resources, time, money and paperwork.

You are simply showing your ignorance of the process and doing no one any good. Once we have the "cold hard truth", then we can "deal with it". The fact that you make stab-in-the-dark guess is about as far from the "cold hard facts" as it gets.

Whether you like it or not, "waiting for the NTSB" is the ONLY option.

 

[threegreen]

I think it's good to wonder what happened - you may not be correct when the final investigation comes out; but in the mean time it may be a good reminder of what to (or not to) do!

 

[threegreen]

duplicate.

 

[SDCFI]

Whether you like it or not, "waiting for the NTSB" is the ONLY option.

While I do agree with this sentiment, keep in mind that without flight recorders, radar data, or witnesses there's a good possibility the NTSB won't be able to determine a probable cause unless an obvious mechanical malfunction can be determined. While speculating for the sake of speculating serves no usefull purpose, examining the "what ifs" of the situation can stimulate critical thinking so that when we find ourselves in a similar circumstance these ideas are in the back of our mind and may help us avoid a similar outcome. For the record I too knew the Training Capt quite well, having lived in the same city for over a year and flying with him twice for recurrent training. The fact that he may have made a mistake that cost him his life only serves to remind me that if it can happen to him it can definately happen to me, and knowing this will hopefully help prevent me from becoming complacent or taking things for granted. Unfortunately we will probably never know exactly what happened up there, but that doesn't mean we can't benefit from the experience it provides.

To my friend and fellow freight dog Carl - RIP my brother, I'm a better person having known and worked with you.

 

[DirtyBeech]

troll565,
i love you man, that is great. Everyone and their fricking ego has to blame the pilots before an investigation even starts. It pisses me off. The pilots were great guys. The best check airman i have ever had.

Nice. I mean really. No one denigrated either pilot. And we all know that if the captain was the best check airman that jparks ever knew, then it's a complete impossibility that a piloting error might have been made. Grow up. What we do know is that the 99 impacted terrain after attempting a non precision approach with a course change at the navaid in a non radar environment. Now really ask yourself what probably happened? Did a gryo fail, or a real emergency occur distracting the pilots? Maybe. I'll stick with the simplest explanation as my guess rather than assuming the plane fell out of the air or a mountain jumped in the way.

I'm sorry that you lost friends who were great people and pilots. I didn't know them, and perhaps that allows me and many others to analyze what happened from a distance. However, if you're going to sit there and tell me to go fvck myself because I looked at an accident, tried to understand what happened, and drew a possible conclusion that might affect how I fly then you might want to choose another profession. If you're saying you don't do the same then you're either a great liar or a complete fool. In any event, the NTSB is not going to submit this thread as evidence in the investigation, and I seriously doubt family members are anxiously waiting for updates in their emails from flightinfo.

Now go mourn for your friends, and when you're done you can pull your head out of your a$$ and realize that no one was disrespecting, or trying to disrespect them. Then go think about what happened (as if you already haven't) and maybe apply it to your flying. It seems to me that the one with the ego problem is you. Or, you could pretend you waited a year for the NTSB report to come out and think it over.

Btw, I would only hope my family and friends would not immediately throw out the possibility of me screwing up if I were to be killed in an airplane accident. I foul up on every flight, and if you're honest with yourself, you do it too. I have no problem admitting that to myself, or having another pilot or check airman or whoever pointing it out either. In time, when you separate your emotions some from the accident you'll realize that I was only stating a guess, and probably a good one given the circumstances, that was drawn after trying to figure out what went wrong.

Trollboy,
shove that lear up you a$$, and perhaps it will help you stop $hitting all over threads.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Good post, DB.

I'm sure these guys wouldn't have wanted a flame war to erupt over all of this. Real classy, troll565.

RIP to the fallen freight brothers.

And condolences to their friends and families.

 

[skyhwk74]

I have a lot of time in this machine. My condolences to the families of the crewmembers involved.

I have some time in 54RP as well. I had the opportunity to meet Carl in '04, I remember him taking some time off to be with his newborn twins. I didn't fly with him, but my rommate at the time did quite a bit and had nothing but good things to say.

"To fly West, my friend, is a flight we all must take for a final check." -AU

Carl and Kyle, Rest in peace gentlemen.

 

[citabriapilot]

I too have to agree with Dirty Beech. I feel terrible for what happened, and have no doubt that both men were great guys and great pilots. They wouldn't have been in that plane in the first place if they weren't.

However the accident happened, Dirty Beech's analysis will come into my mind the next time I do an approach with a dogleg at the FAF.

 

[frmrBUFFdrvr]

I have to side with the posters with the reasoned, professional demeaner on this one. I didn't know KK and I only knew CC from going through Basic Indoc together over 5 years ago. But I do know AMF's training and screening programs and neither one would have been in the position they were (captain in training and Training Captain/Check Airman) if they didn't have what it took to do the job right.

That being said, all of us are human and thus we are all capable of making mistakes. When I was getting ready to get out of the Air Force, I knew of an 11 year Air Force officer, KC135 instructor pilot at the primary training base for that aircraft, who busted his ATP check ride for the very thing this "speculation" is proposing. Fortunately for him, it happened in the Los Angelas basin and it only resulted in the examiner saying "OK, lets go home."

Much as we all hate to see it, most aviation accidents have "pilot error" as a contributing factor. To ignore that fact and start calling someone a "fcucking Doouche" just shows your own immaturity level.

As was pointed out, there are no flight recorders on these aircraft so, barring an obvious mechanical problem, there will most likely never be a definative answer to what happened. But if you can give me ANY other explaination that puts the aircraft 7 miles from the airport, at or just above the final approach altitude, I'd be MORE than happy to hear it.

 

[flx757]

Why does everyone think that just becuase there are no FDRs or CVRs (I won't even touch the "witnesses" comment. That is the LAST thing that ever turns up useful information. All you get from "witnesses" are different versions of the "engine sputtering" just before the accident... )that the NTSB won't be able to come up with a "definitive answer"? They do it every day. Perhaps a little knowledge of the investigative process is in order??

I have nothing against taking information that might come to the forefront and using it to increase awaweness of this particular approach. But to make some blanket statement that "here is what they did" is irresponsible. No matter HOW you try and rationalize it.

 

[DirtyBeech]

757,
No one made a blanket statement of " This is what by God happened." I know I was very careful to use such large words as might, speculate, guess, maybe, probably, and so forth to describe what happened. None of those words are are usually linked with certainty. So, after you educate us about the investigation process, you can loosen up your pilot error trip wire, and maybe read the posts for what they are.

 

[flx757]

I never even uttered the term "pilot error". Didn't remotely suggest it either was or wasn't a factor in this accident. Maybe YOU need to "read the posts".

G'day all. Let us know what you decide was the "probable cause".

 

[PA31Driver]

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060329X00363&key=1

 

[skyhwk74]

FLYING WEST


I hope there's a place, way up in the sky
Where pilots can go when they have to die.
A place where a guy could buy a cold beer
For a friend and a comrade whose memory is dear.
A place where no doctor or lawyer could tread,
Nor a management-type would e'ler be caught dead!
Just a quaint little place, kind of dark, full of smoke,
Where they like to sing loud, and love a good joke.
The kind of a place that a lady could go
And feel safe and secure by the men she would know.

There must be a place where old pilots go,
When their wings become heavy, when their airspeed gets low,
Where the whiskey is old, and the women are young,
And songs about flying and dying are sung.
Where you'd see all the fellows who'd 'flown west' before,
And they'd call out your name, as you came through the door,
Who would buy you a drink, if your thirst should be bad,
And relate to the others, "He was quite a good lad!"

And there, through the mist, you'd spot an old guy
You had not seen in years, though he'd taught you to fly.
He'd nod his old head, and grin ear to ear
And say, "Welcome, my Son, I'm proud that you're here!
For this is the place where true flyers come
When the battles are over, and the wars have been won.
They've come here at last, to be safe and alone,
From the government clerk, and the management clone;
Politicians and lawyers, the Feds, and the noise,
Where all hours are happy, and these good ol' boys
Can relax with a cool one, and a well deserved rest!
This is Heaven, my Son. You've passed your last test!"
— Captain Michael J. Larkin, TWA (Ret.), 'Air Line Pilot' magazine, February 1995

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

I never even uttered the term "pilot error". Didn't remotely suggest it either was or wasn't a factor in this accident. Maybe YOU need to "read the posts".

G'day all. Let us know what you decide was the "probable cause".

I think that Dirty Beech's & RedEye 1 earlier posts probably have hit the nail on the head, I'll be interested to find if the NTSB's investigation determine what the CDI on the HSI was set at, subject to surviving the crash, that will be definitive in what happened.

I find no harm in the intelligent & sensitive discussion of what might have gone wrong regarding an aircraft accident, as pilots we all make mistakes, I am sure of that. Such discussions are by no means to be seen as denigrading the crew of this unfortunate flight.

My base chief pilot crashed on approach into SFF just after Thanksgiving a couple of years back, I have still not heard the definitive probable cause on that from the NTSB. So I am quite happy to entertain thoughtful discussions on this tragic crash, if just to get a jump start on probable cause and learn from it.

Mr 757, I think you need get off your sanctimonious horses ass and stop berating those who see fit to try and figure out this event and share their opinions with their fellow pilot's, especially the AMF crews.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

couldn't have said it any better Mr. Bollocks. I didnt know CC but I knew KK and he was a genuine and wonderful person. He will be missed, but most of all, the memories of being in indoc together and being a coworker of his at syx will bring a smile to my face.