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Amex, NetJets, and Johnny Soprano.

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gunfyter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Posts
3,785
American Express takes 3% on transactions.

Netjets is taking 4%.

And your neighborhood bookie's "VIG" is 10%.

AMEX:

3%. You buy something for $1000 and Amex takes $30. But thats not an APR! Thats for putting up money for 1 month... When your Amex bill is due. Amex is making more than 36% APR on the money it fronts for purchases. Not bad!

NetJets:

4% on Revenue. Thats OPM that flows into NJ and then NJ pays for all the costs of managing the aircraft. Thats not APR either. $5 Billion in annual revenue comes in fairly steady. Maybe $400 Million per month. NJ take $16 million. Thats like an APR of more than 50%

Johnny Soprano: (Italian American Mathematician, Venture Capitalist)

Takes bets on the NFL games. He gives you a week to pay and charges 10% VIG. Works out to more than an APR of 500%

"There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who cannot." -- Warren Buffett --
 
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American Express takes 3% on transactions.

Netjets is taking 4%.

And your neighborhood bookie's "VIG" is 10%.

AMEX:

3%. You buy something for $1000 and Amex takes $30. But thats not an APR! Thats for putting up money for 1 month... When your Amex bill is due. Amex is making more than 36% APR on the money it fronts for purchases. Not bad!

NetJets:

4% on Revenue. Thats OPM that flows into NJ and then NJ pays for all the costs of managing the aircraft. Thats not APR either. $5 Billion in annual revenue comes in fairly steady. Maybe $400 Million per month. NJ take $16 million. Thats like an APR of more than 50%

Johnny Soprano: (Italian American Mathematician, Venture Capitalist)

Takes bets on the NFL games. He gives you a week to pay and charges 10% VIG. Works out to more than an APR of 500%

Don't quit your second job just yet, Tony Baloney.
 
Warren relies on people who can't count. He's been saying that he pays less taxes than his secretary for years

Shut up Warren and just write a cheque
 
Try as I might, replicating the crazy is just not within reach.
 
Johnny Soprano: (Italian American Mathematician, Venture Capitalist)

Takes bets on the NFL games. He gives you a week to pay and charges 10% VIG. Works out to more than an APR of 500%

Maybe that's what we need, a Johnny Soprano type figured.

and there's Mr. Soprano going up to owners doors, "Hi I'm from Netjets, I'm here to collect and this month there will be an extra 10% for protection"
 
Johnny Soprano always made money for his partners.
City OTB still perfecta mess: Nagging losses piling up despite state
NYC OTB reported a whopping $76.5 million operating loss in its audited financial statement for fiscal year 2008, the last year the city ran the operation.
Wouldn't NY have been better off letting the mafia lose $76 million? Rather than stifle a Venture Capitalist like Johnny Soprano with unfair government competition in his business?

I mean a Casino that loses money ... that really is product dumping.
 
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Warren relies on people who can't count. He's been saying that he pays less taxes than his secretary for years

Shut up Warren and just write a cheque
Wait till he asks you for Concessions so you can pay a lower rate than he does.... My illustration confirms we are in the usuary,,, errr uh,,, I mean banking business.
 
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"Air-oholic..."

Let's do the quick math.

Approximately 275 sold whole aircraft equivalents in shares with approximately 385 registered aircraft.
Approximately 40 whole aircraft equivalents in sold cards with approximately 58 registered aircraft.
Won't bother with Europe for the purposes of this exercise but its Europe is a net negative with approximately 100 sold whole aircraft equivalents in shares and cards with just under 150 registered aircraft.
More than 100 aircraft "disposed of" from the US fleet.
Revenue flight demand is down double digits year over year.
Operational efficiency (Utility) is trending the historical low range.
Fleet availability (aircraft airworthiness) is trending the historical low range.
Number of employees per sold aircraft equivalent is trending historical high range.

Approximates are used because different technical issues can change specific numbers but the round numbers and trends are clear. In addition, it makes it clear this is all publicly available data that the industry, industry associations (such as GAMA, NBAA, NATA) and government agencies (such as FAA, NTSB, BLS) use and not an internal bookkeeping shell game.

Therefore, Top Line revenue is down dramatically YOY during the past three years (if you don't included the unprecedented disposal of assets, that Berkshire booked an unprecedented write-off with in 2009). Why? Sales, average sale price, and sales margins are in a steady state of decline (gross number of whole aircraft equivalent card and share sales remain at all time lows and new vs used aircraft values and margins are on the historical low end of the range). Number of total sold aircraft equivalents and aggregate Monthly Management Fees are in a steady state of decline. Total number of aircraft and the aggregate number of revenue flight hours are in a steady state of decline. Operational efficiency (Utility) is trending the historical low range.

When any conglomerate says X company made X dollars and doesn't list where or how, always ask where or how. More importantly, ask yourself if a company didn't make real money (cash), why is any CEO unnecessarily posting a profit only to pay taxes on said "earnings" against the shareholders interests.

I don't think history will be as kind to Warren once he's gone as it has while he is alive. He knows this. There are many stories that will surface when he no longer has some much influence over the national and business press. His failures in corporate governance and hypocrisy when it comes to corporate transparency will unfortunately be his last chapter. What is clear is that its all impacting the Berkshire shareholder today. Berkshire has never traded lower and with a company that doesn't pay dividends stock price is everything.

What does it all mean for the average Joe? Not a damn thing. But if you truly believe any fractional company is making cash while in a steady state of decline, and I mean real cash, you probably shouldn't be in a cockpit.

Eventually, years possibly or decades from now, some ceo will have to breakup Berkshire Hathaway. The bottom line is today Berkshire is not as valuable as a whole as it is in pieces. To maximize shareholder value it must be broken up. Sadly, this is where history won't be kind to Buffett. And where Buffett originally missed it, that's where DLS would have taken it. Buffett finally figured that out.

Until that day, I guess you can bank on the below... and let the make believe numbers make Buffett feel just a little bit better.

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2011ltr.pdf
"Berkshire’s newer shareholders may be puzzled over our decision to hold on to my mistakes. After all, their earnings can never be consequential to Berkshire’s valuation, and problem companies require more managerial time than winners. Any management consultant or Wall Street advisor would look at our laggards and say “dump them.”

That won’t happen. For 29 years, we have regularly laid out Berkshire’s economic principles in these reports (pages 93-98) and Number 11 describes our general reluctance to sell poor performers (which, in most cases, lag because of industry factors rather than managerial shortcomings). Our approach is far from Darwinian, and many of you may disapprove of it. I can understand your position. However, we have made – and continue to make – a commitment to the sellers of businesses we buy that we will retain those businesses through thick and thin. So far, the dollar cost of that commitment has not been substantial and may well be offset by the goodwill it builds among prospective sellers looking for the right permanent home for their treasured business and loyal associates. These owners know that what they get with us can’t be delivered by others and that our commitments will be good for many decades to come.

Please understand, however, that Charlie and I are neither masochists nor Pollyannas. If either of the failings we set forth in Rule 11 is present – if the business will likely be a cash drain over the longer term, or if labor strife is endemic – we will take prompt and decisive action. Such a situation has happened only a couple of times in our 47-year history, and none of the businesses we now own is in straits requiring us to consider disposing of it."

All said it's just one more person's opinion. Time will tell.
 
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The problem with this analysis is that it says revenues are down YOY... But Warren says NJ revenues are UP! And costs are DOWN!

The question is asked, yet not answered ... why would a CEO report profits that do not exist just to pay taxes on them?

If revenues are down compared with pre-financial crisis days ... Wasteful spending is also down. Apparently much more.
 
He also said they sold "new" aircraft. Can you list those "new" aircraft tail numbers for me?

It's ok to believe in magic. It does make things more fun and exciting. I like to believe in magic also, but magic and business don't mix.

I did point out you should remove the revenue from aircraft disposals. Its a one time "benefit." Disposing of 75 plus planes a year is not the type of revenue any experienced management team is looking for simply because you will run out of airplanes to dispose of, therefore, destroying the business. And, the margin or "profit" generated from disposals is because assets were significantly written-down in 2009 and then traded-in in 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013 at, lets just say, unusually high trade-in values. And, the company books the benefit today.

But, if it makes us all sleep better at night knowing more than 20 whole aircraft equivalent shares departed the program; more than 125 aircraft have been disposed of over the past 2 years; no new aircraft have been sold; another 125 aircraft disposals are being queue'd up for 2012 and 2013; for the first two months of 2012 at least one whole aircraft of shares has continued to leave the program; BUT, Berkshire could post $200 plus in profits while overall debt increased more than the posted profits... Then I am on your side as long as it's with the reality and not the wizard of oz.

It's worth pointing out the sales declines have noticeably accelerated since KD has moved on. The company sold almost as many shares in 2009 with the world in crisis as it did in 2011 with the much talked about "recovery." DOW 6,500 or DOW 13,000? What else does one need to know?

So to review... it's not a state of crisis but it is a state of steady decline. No if, ands, or buts about it. Where will it bottom? Time will tell. Since Buffett and Berkshire have publicly agree to eat their decisions... enjoy the ride... what else is there to do?
 
A few things..

#1) NJA planned to lose atleast 100 a/c.... Luthi communicated that to the furloughees in a FWG leter back in early 2010... So the fact that NJA shrunk should be no suprise.... Well maybe it comes as a suprise when Luthi appears shocked that 100 a/c have left.. Guess he forgot what was communicated to him by the EMT back in '09...

#2)As important as the pilots think NJA is, it is not nearly as important to Buffett. (in the grand scheme of his businesses.) What reason would he have to inflate the gains of a business in his "other" category? And to follow that, in other quarterlies he has said negative things about NJA vs. the income of entities such as FSI. So it's not like he is afraid to report negative results from NJA.

#3) Citationaire is closing their fractional business. According to Luthi, the competition was whooping NJA EMT's butt. It is quite obvious that simply was not the case. It becomes quite obvious that no fractional is doing superbly. Avantair is hiring, but if you look at their quarterlies, they are not exactly a financial windfall. So it not just a Netjets problem.

According to NJA, they had an 85% retention rate for 2011. In 2012, 900 contracts are up. (contracts that could have been cancelled back in 2010 for those that needed the $$ quick).. With anywhere close to 85% retention in 2012, NJA would need to acquire 130+/- new owners to keep the status quo. Not exactly an alarming number with an improving economy....

It is easy to say, stock market is doubled, where are sales etc.. But we all should know that a somewhat vibrant stock market doesn't mean the economy has recovered. NJA, specifically Sokol (as much as I hate that guy) predicted 2011 would be another very tough year, and it was difficult. When someone makes a educated prediction and it comes true I don't see how anyone can be shocked when the results are posted.


The sky is not falling at NJA. There has been no reduction in workforce, flight demand is somewhat steady. New planes are being ordered/built. Bids are out for those aircraft, shares have been sold in those aircraft. There has been and always will be disposals, a/c leaving the fleet to make room for new ones. It should be no suprise when a few a/c leave.
 
Revenues from aircraft Disposals should not add to Profit. So it is not counted. If you have an airplane worth $5 million and you trade it for $5 million in cash ... you have not generated a profit. Your net worth is unchanged. Not part of the $227 Million. Disposing of aircraft has no effect on profits. We are smaller we need to get rid of these planes. So I see it as positive, not a negative.

New aircraft. My understanding Globals and Phenoms shares that have not been delivered yet were sold. Nope don't know the tail number.

Its not about Revenues ... its about revenues minus expenses. Apparently expenses are down more than revenues. That would be an improvement. These reports have always been vague enough to prevent anyone from calculating the cash flow. Its not just been since 2009.

We are $227 million richer than we were 12 months ago ... Again...according to Warren Buffett. Is Warren the next Bernie Madoff? Lying to his investors?
 
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The customer retention rate is mid 80% (again public data).
Share size retention rate is mid 60% (public data).

A lot of customers are sticking around. Many are going with smaller share sizes and smaller planes while using other solutions. Big customers have been moving back to their own airplane with small shares for back up.

Fractional is now a portfolio solution. It was for many customers pre DLS & JH the sole source solution. The Club is all but gone.

I hate to say it but NetJets is more block charter now with an older fleet than true young fleet fractional ownership. That is what CA, Cessna, and TEX concluded as well.

Watch TPG - they know aviation very well. They have endless money like Berkshire. Rumor has it DLS tried to pitch TPG and TPG concluded what CA, Cessna, and TEX concluded - call it what you want but post DLS it's all just "block charter now."

But back to the original suggestion of its just a bank - more true than not when you think of the manipulation of assets to post "profits" more so than taking a cut of the spend rate.
 
Revenues from aircraft Disposals should not add to Profit. So it is not counted. If you have an airplane worth $5 million and you trade it for $5 million in cash ... you have not generated a profit. Your net worth is unchanged. Not part of the $227 Million. Disposing of aircraft has no effect on profits. We are smaller we need to get rid of these planes. So I see it as positive, not a negative.

New aircraft. My understanding Globals and Phenoms shares that have not been delivered yet were sold. Nope don't know the tail number.

Its not about Revenues ... its about revenues minus expenses. Apparently expenses are down more than revenues. That would be an improvement. These reports have always been vague enough to prevent anyone from calculating the cash flow. Its not just been since 2009.

We are $227 million richer than we were 12 months ago ... Again...according to Warren Buffett. Is Warren the next Bernie Madoff? Lying to his investors?

They are selling, you a buying.
Top line is all revenue. Yes all including disposals. When and asset is written down to $3mill and traded-in for $4.5mill it can be booked, at a profit, when the contract is signed.
All standard GAAP accounting. Sorry but true. Furthermore, if an asset is written down it can later be readjusted for a gain.

Never confuse "operating income," "pretax earnings," or "profit" with "cash." You're are suggesting profit and cash-flows are the same. Thay are not. If Buffett said it was cash-positive $50mill I would grease my pants. I will take $50mill cash positive over $200mill pretax profit 9 times out of 10.

What would you think NetJets BV is? I'm comfortable saying less than my personal BV.

But think what you wish. But clearly they are selling and you are buying.
 
We know from the Financial Crisis that banks are crooks....

So I think my Johnny Soprano comparison is appropriate.

You could be totally right and Berkshire is lying to everyone. The data presented does not lend itself to calculating the cash flow involved.

If they are not lying (which I think is a reasonable assumption. Noted that some do not agree. I can only go with what is reported.), IF they have figured out how to get $200 million in profits with zero net sales, then my Amex, Soprano's comparison is what I think they have achieved. They have figured out how to take a small percentage of whatever cash flows through the business.

++++++++++++++++++++
BTW,
NJ did not post losses on the money the paid to buy back airplanes in 2009. therefore they should not post gains on the sale of same aircraft.

The losses posted were write down on the value of the aircraft purchased. If there were no loss in value ... no loss would have been posted in 2009.

If an aircraft you say was bought in 2009 for $3 million sold in 2011 for $4.5 Million... IF the aircraft was worth $4.5, I believe it would have to be valued as such and a $1.5 million gain posted *** whether the plane is sold or not***. that would be consistent with what they did in 2009.
 
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I'm only suggesting a closer look and eyes wide open stance. I do believe it's all legal. But there is a lot of latitude within the law.

In the end Buffett said the Berkshire shareholders will eat it all - and like it. So it's time to defend what's there and enjoy the ride.

If they are up $227mill then raises across the board! The numbers should only get better!!
 
If they do ... we will be waiting till 2016 for those raises. A wise man on another board said The company will not be opening negotiations unless they are looking for concessions. Otherwise they will just take the option and extend the contract 3 more years. This makes sense to me...
 
They absolutely did post losses on those airplanes in 2009, along with repurchasing. In fact DLS went even deeper to close 2009. That's where nearly all of the $700mill plus in 2009 losses came from per Buffett and Berkshire in the 2009 letter and financials.

A plane value can take a write-down to $3mill with a loss of X. Then later post a profit if it's sold for $4.5mill. Or if the market justifies backing out the write-down because of a market recovery. That's accounting, not generating reoccurring cash-flows.

Pilots want positive cash-flows from a net gain in new sales, monthly management, and flying. The rest is for the accounting department. Anything else is bad from a pilot perspective.

I bet you can increase your earnings if you sold all your cars. Then what? They are just selling the cars in the driveway. New planes please! More new planes added faster than old ones are going out the back door pretty please!!
 
More new planes added faster than old ones are going out the back door pretty please!!

We can all agree with this....

You may know more than most.. But what was the delivery time frame for all those Cessna's and 4000's etc.. I was under the impression that most, if not all, new deliveries were slated for 2011 and beyond.. And the Falcon's weren't scheduled until 2014....

The way I'm looking at it is if the majority of deliveries weren't slated until 2011, then NJA simply took a year or two delivery delay... (and IMO not all that irresposible given the state of NJA and the industry)
 
The losses were MARK TO MARKET write downs on the value of the purchased planes. We spent way more than $700 Million buying back those planes. If we had written off what we paid for the airplanes it would have been about $1.5 billion. Aircraft values plunged by 40%... 40% of 1.5 Billion is $600 million. If the value of airplanes had remained stable ... there would have been no losses reported.

When you bought your house in 2007 for $400K ... you did not lose $400K. But when the housing bubble burst and the value of your home is now only $200k ... you are now $200K poorer. If you were a business you are required to write down the value of this asset. mark to mark accounting rules. the shareholders must be made aware of this loss of value.


NetJets produced a pre-tax loss in 2009 of $711 million compared to pre-tax earnings of $213 million in 2008. The pre-tax
loss at NetJets in 2009 included asset writedowns and other downsizing costs of $676 million compared to $54 million of such
charges in 2008.
What you see here is even in the terrible terrible year 2009 ... Excluding the write down losses ... we only lost $35 Million. Now that we do not have those Write down losses ... how hard it is believe we made $200 million? With 1000 fewer employees we probably have $100 to $200 Million less in Payroll and associated costs. as you know, that is not the only place we have seen cost cutting.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AliceSchroeder.com
Nearly 90% of NetJets losses

Nearly 90% of NetJets losses were one time aircraft value mark to market write-downs for 2009. Sokol accelerated and exaggerated losses to "Santulli's report card" so he could show greater "profits" for 2010 and Sokol's report card. Remove all the one time charges (restructuring costs, write-downs, etc) resulting from a financial crisis and major economic down turn and the "turn-around" you speak of is the tail wagging the dog.
see : Mark-to-Market Accounting Basics
 
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Customer Cutting vs Cost Cutting

Sales Revenues - fair to say down more than 30%
Sales Margins - fair to say less than 4% on reselling used aircraft. But when the company repurchases at FMV and resells at FMV margins should be nill.

Monthly Management Fees - fair to say more than 30% of shares have left the program or more than 150 aircraft. Add the crew and Mx cost increase due to seniority/longevity and aging fleet respectively. Therefore, MMF revenues decreasing and the two biggest ticket fixed line item expenses increasing.

Hourly Fees - fair to say "operational efficiency" isn't at an all time high. In fact it's trending the historical low range. With Utility in the low range there is little OHF margin. Data indicates revenue flight hours year over year are down more than 10%. And down more than 25% from its peaks.

Every revenue stream with the exception of sales from disposal is down equal to or greater than cost cutting. If my revenue is down as much as 30% from peak but I've cut 10% to 15% of my staff my margins get worse, not better, when you use a revenue to staffing level metric.

If I ran at 75% utility but now run at 65% utility my operational efficiencies got worse not better. Therefore, my margins are worse not better.

Name one metric that has improved under DLS/JH management? Just one.
Employees per sold airplane - no
Utility - no
Aircraft availability - no
Net new sales - no
Fewer owners per sold airplane - no
Larger plane size per owner - no
Larger plane size per employee - no
Higher sales margin per sold airplane - no
Decreased number of unsold airplanes to maintain without owners - sort of

I have one - disposals - they are good at trading in old planes for a maybe on future orders.

So when you say cost cutting is paying off, I ask, compared to what? Good at cost cutting would mean when 30% of my business leaves I have found a way to reduce 35% to 40% of my staffing.

We are all glad they suck at that. They aren't even down 20% on staffing.

But they did hit all the non-union employees on pay and benefits for a small "gain" to put towards the $227mill. And you know the owners are happy to hear they pay more for less so Berkshire can post a $227mill profit.

It's all just silly. Why say anything at all if you don't have to?

My 2cents anyway. I'm done. Just enjoying the annual letter release day. Rah - Rah - Rah Warren! You should have left while on top. Not while trying to write your own obituary.

Again, just enjoy the ride...
 
We all know sales and the business is not what it was in 2007 or even 2008.... Neither is the entire country.. As much as I want a recall, I am ok with the fact that business is just not picking up as quick as they would have liked.......

And the books can be cooked any which way that Warren needs.. It's the same with every quarterly report from every business...No suprise that NJA's books can look fishy at times..

But I haven't seen one thing that has occurred that wasn't announced prior..

1)Shrinkage...announced

2)Aircraft orders cancelled...excuse ...given

3)Recalls.. Weren't slated to begin until mid 2012 at the earliest

4) crappy 2011....forecasted by sokol himself on CNBC... the idiot humself said,, "we see a difficult 2011"

But you have to also look at the positives to see some re-investing in the company....

1) New HQ
2)New a/c orders...appearing to atleast start arriving on time.. Unless you believe 1000 Bomb. employees would be duped into christining a Global 6000 that wasn't really a NJA plane.

3) Joint venture with Signature for elaborate PBI/VNY FBO's
4) In house Financing for corporate buyers
5) Wifi
5)Refurbs..(although I know they may be sprucing up the chickens for a sale)
6) Heck, they even brought back the more expensive Fiji water
7) Have not said one word about pay cuts or cried poor asking for any concessions other than scope.. (which is a big concession, but as far as pay and bennies, still very much intact)
8)Furloughs due to shrinkage that is supposed to happen....rumor has been absolutely debunked time and time again. As far as I know, everyone except the original 495 has kept their jobs for 2+ years with no furlough on the horizon.


With this huge loss of a/c that you and Luthi predict, I want to know when this furlough is going to happen... I mean if they're gonna dispose of 75 more a/c, you'd think they'd need 350+ less pilots
 
All I have to say is they may want to be a little less obvious and sell some new planes. Not by 1's, 2's, or 10's but by 50's and 100's. Just an intellectual honesty thing. Other than that I don't care all that much. It all tends to work itself out eventually.

The way I look at it none of this matters to the over 55 or seniority higher than 1,500 crowd. At least not for 5 to 10 years. By then the landscape and players will be different.
 
I have to agree, there is no really good news here for people that want a recall or upgrade. Its a little good if you don't want to be furloughed.

I believe we have reported profits 9 out of the last 10 years. They can't lie every year.

Its not too hard for me to believe there are profits. We charge $10,400 per hour to ride on a Citation X. The 4% the company says they take is a measily $400.
 
Can't disagree with that. 3% to 4%? Nearly all agree it's a less than ideal investment with high risk and a lot of energy for very low returns. Most look for 15% to 20% pretax. But some people much like WEB enjoy jets more than sex. The issue going forward is reinvestment and scale - do they reinvest, take all they can out and let it fizzle fast - or somewhere in between?

The next CEO of Berkshire will answer the NetJets beyond 5 to 10 years question. For now JH is there and he, like DLS, wasn't hired to inspire or make any friends. The good news is most of us already have enough friends, so we'll see what he's got.
 
My understanding is the 4% is on revenue, not on investment. I tried to illustrate that by comparing to Amex's 3 %. And Johnny sopranos 10 % vig.

I don't know how much Buffett is into NJ for. $1 billion? Then $200million is a 20% return. $2billion, a 10% roi.

I don't think it's more than $2 billion. If its more than that $200 million a year profit is not going to cut it... Understanding this all depends on my assumption that the annual report is telling the truth, which is questioned by some here.
 
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