American pilots weren’t allowed to strike, so instead they did something clever

[Whine Lover]

" I think is more like how to spot "The Kalitta pilot" thread. I know the concept of using the MEL for anything other than ballast is probably a difficult concept for you to relate to, but most scheduled pax carriers live in a far different world than you guys do. " - C150-ETOPS


WHOA..

I have been a "Kalitta pilot" for the last two years.

15 years previous at ATA.

I've lived in both "worlds"...

Let's throw out the stereotype right here and now...This is not your father's Connie Kalitta, and we aren't fighting the Battle of Willow Run anymore.



It has been my experience in my short time here that discrepancy's are always put in the book and they are either deferred, or corrected, when we take off.

I have never been pressured by a K4 Captain, fellow Crewmember or anyone else in MX or Ops. to fly any other way.

I'm just sayin'.

Other than that we are in total agreement.


YKW

 

[lionflyer]

" I think is more like how to spot "The Kalitta pilot" thread. I know the concept of using the MEL for anything other than ballast is probably a difficult concept for you to relate to, but most scheduled pax carriers live in a far different world than you guys do. " - C150-ETOPS


WHOA..

I have been a "Kalitta pilot" for the last two years.

15 years previous at ATA.

I've lived in both "worlds"...

Let's throw out the stereotype right here and now...This is not your father's Connie Kalitta, and we aren't fighting the Battle of Willow Run anymore.



It has been my experience in my short time here that discrepancy's are always put in the book and they are either deferred, or corrected, when we take off.

I have never been pressured by a K4 Captain, fellow Crewmember or anyone else in MX or Ops. to fly any other way.

I'm just sayin'.

Other than that we are in total agreement.


YKW

That was a cheap shot no doubt. There are plently of ATA Midwest, & furloughed AA guys at Kalitta. I too have seen both worlds. Here's another senerio that actully happened to me years ago at my old regional:
Full AC. W&B has us 2lbs overweight. Not 200. TWO!!! And this is the FAA approved W&B program that lists each PAX at 185lbs carryon included. But if you put said carryon in the cargo because of size etc, you just magically added 25 extra lbs to the AC and the PAX is still 185lb. Company policy at the time was bump people before bags. What do you do Skipper?

 

[scoreboardII]

I think those arguing the captain should mel and go fail to realize the reality of what AA pilots are facing, unrelenting FAA oversight. Certificate action will get me to dot every I and cross every T. And since management doesn't want pilots doing everyone elses job, so be it, we'll wait for the mechanic to properly document the issue.

 

[Whine Lover]

" That was a cheap shot no doubt. "

I didn't take it that way. It's just a long held assumption, not without some roots in past reality, that Fr8dogs operate differently. I'm sure many still do....But, it's not been my experience at K4.





"Full AC. W&B has us 2lbs overweight. Not 200. TWO!!! And this is the FAA approved W&B program that lists each PAX at 185lbs carryon included. But if you put said carryon in the cargo because of size etc, you just magically added 25 extra lbs to the AC and the PAX is still 185lb. Company policy at the time was bump people before bags. What do you do Skipper?"

Move the cargo/payload/paperwork around until it is correct and legal according to the approved W&B program. If there is no solution other than to bump people or bags or both I would give the problem to Ops. , S.O.C. ( ( or whomever at a given company ) and ask them how they would like to proceed. If they want to bump people that's there prerogative and their policy.


WL

 

[C-150ETOPS]

not[/I] your father's Connie Kalitta, and we aren't fighting the Battle of Willow Run anymore.

Furr' enough' :beer: Beers on me if we ever cross airways. Good the hear
things are better.

Even so, if Airgator operations are like he says, I doubt he would get in the way of a "critical shipment" on Christmas Eve if for instance, it was 28F and there was very thin minor frost barely covering the aft two inches of each spoiler and flap. boxes don't care and we all basically know in that case what reality is.

The problem AA has is Irving Sloshberg, his chunky wife and brat kid who Youtubes the wing surface while taxing out, Daddy is pissed at AA because he didn't get his upgrade and "knows" the CA is performing a slow taxi "job action" (actually a wheels up time). Junior is also a virtual airline command pilot whose wings are always clear and knows the "deadly risk" his flight faced.

3 weeks later the AA Captain is called in with the FAA present, and gets to view his starring role online.

 

[lionflyer]

" That was a cheap shot no doubt. "

I didn't take it that way. It's just a long held assumption, not without some roots in past reality, that Fr8dogs operate differently. I'm sure many still do....But, it's not been my experience at K4.





"Full AC. W&B has us 2lbs overweight. Not 200. TWO!!! And this is the FAA approved W&B program that lists each PAX at 185lbs carryon included. But if you put said carryon in the cargo because of size etc, you just magically added 25 extra lbs to the AC and the PAX is still 185lb. Company policy at the time was bump people before bags. What do you do Skipper?"

Move the cargo/payload/paperwork around until it is correct and legal according to the approved W&B program. If there is no solution other than to bump people or bags or both I would give the problem to Ops. , S.O.C. ( ( or whomever at a given company ) and ask them how they would like to proceed. If they want to bump people that's there prerogative and their policy.


WL

You will take a delay and some of these regional CPs can get quite snotty! They want the on time performance so they can get their bonus! As far as AA is concerned, if the FAA is crawling all over everything, you have no choice but to follow every period in the FARs and GOM. And the result? Chaos!

 

[Whine Lover]

"You will take a delay and some of these regional CPs can get quite snotty"

No problem. You can't be faulted for doing your job and following company policy and procedure.

If the outcome is less than desirable to the Powers That Be....Well, they better change the program.


And ya', I just got off the phone with a 25 year friend of mine who is in his 2nd year as Captain at AA ( after 20 years of employment ). We fought the Battle of Willow run together at Zantop a long time ago.

He knows how things "work". He has been flying with an F/O he nicknamed "Eagle Eye" for his attentiveness to detail...And yes, the Feds are ALL over the place as far as AA is concerned.

He assured me that his Modus Operandi is no different than mine....and this is NOT 1987, and that we will never again benefit from the cloak of darkness that Willow Run once offered.

Oh, the romance and the reality of it all....

Why, it seems just yesterday that a man in a white suit, with matching bow-tie and hat, would visit my stoop each morning to deliver dairy products into a small metal box.

Never again. Never again.

"Sometimes I yearn Jerry....Do you ever yearn ? "





YKW

 

[airgator]

Even so, if Airgator operations are like he says, I doubt he would get in the way of a "critical shipment" on Christmas Eve if for instance, it was 28F and there was very thin minor frost barely covering the aft two inches of each spoiler and flap. boxes don't care and we all basically know in that case what reality is.

I love how you equate not writing up the nav light till you get back to base and discover it on the postflight to taking off with frost on the wings.

 

[CA1900]

"Sometimes I yearn Jerry....Do you ever yearn ? "

Classic! :laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnqBAuehmhM

 

[airplane wizard]

C-150ETOPS, Whine Lover and CA1900 all get it.

All the rest of you, are fine with "bending the rules" UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO YOU - you get a letter of investigation over something you deemed "trivial" at departure time.

If the Nav Light is not deferrable - you write it up and have it fixed. If it is deferrable - you still write it up and have it deferred. Period. Is your license and career really worth anything else?

Some of your answers really blow me away. Easy to distinguish between the forward leaners and the real Captains on this thread.

Oh, and if your wife is pregnant and about to deliver - WTH are you doing on that trip to begin with, ignoramus?

What happens to the FO's license if the Capt decides to fly with the nav light inop?

 

[Whine Lover]

Classic! :laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnqBAuehmhM

Beautiful Sir.

I recalled it somewhat differently... but it's still GREAT.

Glad to see someone got the reference.

YKMKW

 

[Whine Lover]

" What happens to the FO's license if the Capt decides to fly with the nav light inop? '

- You operate as a Crew.

- You have colluded with the Captain to circumvent FAR.

- You will be violated accordingly.

There are many accident studies that find that an "unassertive First Officer" contributed to the accident scenario by allowing the Captain to go outside the realm of common sense and regulation.

This is how CRM came about.


YKW

 

[airgator]

So what happens in this scenario if you substitute "an outstation on Christmas eve" to "Kandahar or Bagram"? It's black and white right? Guess you gotta go stay in a tent for a couple nights while the company sends in a part. Same for you AA73, I'll bet if you do a military charter and take some troops downrange you'd call it quits and have the FA's all hunker down for a few days in a tent city.

 

[aa73]

I love how you guys keep "upping the scenarios" hoping we will break down and admit that we would bend the FARs.

Give it up already. You've heard our arguments - they stand no matter what.

By all means, gentlemen - keep on "forward-leaning". Your companies love you.

 

[JustaNumber]

This is a great thread. I find it fascinating that highly experienced pros can't agree on the answer to that most common interview question. Would half of you not be able to make it through the interview now without lying?

I also wonder, given the strong opinions here, how many different interviewERS might be expecting different answers when they ask that question.

As an aside, I once failed an interview with a fly-by-night DC8 operator, over that exact question. I later found out that those who answered that, he11 yes they would go, got the job, and those of us who said we would follow the FARs, did not get the job. Apparently their business model did not allow for the cost of following all the FARs. They eventually went out of business, so I guess nature just followed its course.