Am. Airlines Scope forces Eagle Furlough

[Tim47SIP]

WO = Wholey Owned, just like on all of the other threads. You know, the regionals that the mainlines own that they dont recognize. Hope that helps.

 

[bigD]

Aha! Thank you Tim. I see it used all the time, and through context kind of figured it was a term applied to the regionals, but now I know for sure! Sigh...slowly but surely...I'm getting there.

 

[publisher]

typically

In a growing market and economy, these are things that are not really big problems..... They become such in shrinking companies or economies and everyone tends to feed on their young.

In the case of United Airlines, they signed a contract that most business people, most airline people, and even some of the pilots who would benefit thought was cost prohibitive. To say that management agreed to it would be amisnomer. It was simply better than watching their business travelers totally abandon them doing irrepairable damage.

As I have said on these boards in the areas that have dealt with scope, I think that recent history will make it less likely not more likely that mainline pilots will fly the RJ's or that the regionals will remain wholly owned or maybe even partially owned.

I think that there will be significant changes in the way majors do business or even exist as a result of 2001.

 

[Draginass]

The circumstances around United's contract were really pretty simple. The year before the summer of discontent, the pilot's union TOLD United management that they couldn't fly the schedule without mandatory overtime. SO, when it comes to the summer in question, what does Goodwin do??? He stonewalls the contract negotiations. Brilliant. What did he THINK was going to happen??? At the end of the summer GOODWIN had managed to piss off his customers and pilots, make everybody in Denver mad, and THEN settled for a more expensive contract than he could have had at the beginning of the summer. Buffonery, plain and simple.

The economy is going to pick up. The future is not SWA and Jet Blue, nor the skys darkened with RJs flown by $50 an hour captains. The SWAs and Jet Blues have their nitch, but they don't have a worldwide network or a rational and flexible fleet variety. Also, how long do you think SWA pilots and Jet Blue pilots are going to settle for sub-par compensation and narrow retirement schemes. The industry is in a natural change process. For those regional guys who think that the future is an RJ flown by a at-will contract company, please stay there when American, Delta, Continental, and United start hiring again. After all, there's no future in major airlines, right?

 

[Tim47SIP]

Draginbutt, just keep saying that over and over again. And while you are on the yellowbrick road, in your own mind it may come true some day! Only time will tell. P.S. not to be an insult at all, just a difference of oppinion on the future concerning SW, JB, ATA, Etc.

 

[airjackson]

amen

Thanks for pointing out the same old, same old from the previous post

 

[~~~^~~~]

The SWAs and Jet Blues have their nitch, but they don't have a worldwide network or a rational and flexible fleet variety.

Actually one type has worked rather well for both airlines and your airline is trying to reduce the number of types on the property.

Also, how long do you think SWA pilots are going to settle for sub-par compensation and narrow retirement schemes.

Lets see, Southwest pilots have been at it for 29 years now.

The industry is in a natural change process. For those regional guys who think that the future is an RJ flown by a at-will contract company, please stay there when American, Delta, Continental, and United start hiring again. After all, there's no future in major airlines, right?

Which is it, Sagginbutt? Is the industry changing, or must we all fly at majors? How do you know Southwest, Airtran and Jet Blue are not the future majors?

Back in 1970 who would have taken a job at that little southern cropdusting outfit Delta when a job could be had at Braniff, Continental, Eastern, or the best job ever, Pan Am?

Most of us will be in this business another 25 years, or more. Don't insult those who have hitched their wagons to other airlines - after all each of the airlines you insulted is making a profit, YOUR'S isn't.

 

[ifly4food]

Re: typically

In the case of United Airlines, they signed a contract that most business people, most airline people, and even some of the pilots who would benefit thought was cost prohibitive. To say that management agreed to it would be amisnomer. It was simply better than watching their business travelers totally abandon them doing irrepairable damage.

While your management-centric viewpoint is sometimes enlightening, I think you're falling into the usual management funk here.

It doesn't matter one bit if UAL management had a gun to their heads when they signed. They signed. They could have said no, and opened up other avenues. They signed.
Once you sign, a contract is a contract. Tough luck. You either mutually agree to ammend the contract of you live with it. You don't cry sour grapes after you sign and something unexpected happens. No one could have predicted 9/11, but let's be honest here... the economy was going down the toilet long before that. The signs were there when UAL signed.
A contract is a contract.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It doesn't matter one bit if UAL management had a gun to their heads when they signed. They signed. They could have said no, and opened up other avenues.

What other avenues? Would that be Bankruptcy Avenue, or Insolvency Street?

Some pilots seem to think that no matter what they negotiate - it is up to management to somehow make it profitable.

United was bleeding due to the "summer of discontent." United management banked on increased costs in the rest of the industry as each pilot group matched the United contract - which did not happen. Delta increased costs, but American probably will not. Continental will not, and US Air is no longer relevant.

Of course the management of the company I fly for signed an even dumber deal with only a cork gun to their head. At least they had the good sense to leave provisions that would allow the company to survive if the economy tanked, which it has.

IFF - have you run the numbers to see if ALPA's grievance will result in your furlough?

 

[ifly4food]

~^~,
They didn't havbe to sign. They could have let it go to arbitration, rolled the dice with a strike vote, whatever. They chose to sign. Now a contract is a contract.

IFF - have you run the numbers to see if ALPA's grievance will result in your furlough?

Do you know something we don't? Care to enlighten us?
Last I checked, DALPA hadn't won anything and didn't have a shot in He!l of forcing a flow down to DCI. That is a pie in the sky RJDC propaganda slogan you bring up. They can't force a flow down. They might be able to get an Eagle style furlough IF the caps are indeed hit, which would only result in quicker E120 retirement.
You are always screaming that the sky is falling. We're still waiting.