Alternate career path

[hyper]

I'm probably biased, but....

I'll agree that college isn't for everybody and if I had to do it over again I'd PROBABLY do the 4 years for the security of that piece of paper.

However, and more importantly IMO, if you want to be a better, efficient pilot and get an invaluable education to assist you for the rest of your flying career (college degree or not).......fly freight. I'm flying people now (as opposed to boxes) and I can say as a rule, the FOs I fly with that have freight experience have much better real world IFR, sit. awareness, and in most cases, flying skills than others from alternate backgrounds. Does it mean they are better pilots? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the type of operation I guess. But if/when the $hit hits the fan, I sure hope I'm next to another dawg.

 

[bobbysamd]

What proof would Bobby like, Names, DOB's, SSN#'s, home ph #'s? In addition, what percent makes the numbers significant? 5%, 10%, 25% who make it without a college degree? What period is needed to make the proof acceptable, last year, last three years, and last month? On the other hand, is there no proof that would meet Bobby's requirement of success without a college degree?

You still haven't answered "how," Yip.

 

[qmaster3]

Why not sell porn and make $$$ to fly????

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby sure I did, it is the start of this thread

 

[bobbysamd]

Alternate career "path"

You may discover you do not like flying, this will save you time in college studying aviation. You can then go to college and get a real degree that leads to a good paying job.

So, now, an aviation degree, along with women's studies, is not a "real" degree?? Baloney, Yip. Any degree, as long as it comes from an accredited college, is a "real" degree.

If you lived in the YIP area I would have you paint my house, cut my grass in exchange for flight time . . . .

I'll bet your house is always freshly-painted and your lawn freshly-mowed. The point being is there is no shortage of aspirees trying this strategy. There are only so many houses to be painted and lawns to be mowed in exchange for flight time.

Then find somewhere flying a CA-212 to something needing a F/O, doing sky diving or something, volunteer to sit in the right seat for peanuts.

I'd be careful about giving/receiving this kind of advice. The time may not be legally loggable. Insurance requirements may preclude "riders." Moreover, these opportunities, in reality, are few and far between.

Get a job on the ramp where a cargo operator flying turbo props, Metroliners. Skyvans, etc, that comes through in the middle of the night; get to know the crewmembers, make sure they always have fresh coffee, loan them your airport special to get something to eat. Never pass up an opportunity to be a great guy to hang around with, never complain. Ask if they are looking for F/O’s. You will probably be one of the first they think of when hiring comes . . . .

You don't know that for sure, because dozens of others try the same strategy. What about the other jobs in which more education than high school is being sought? Without that education, those folks are SOL. Moreover, how many companies will hire some 19-year-old with a thousand hours to drive around its turbine airplane. Not many.

This is an alternate career path I have seen succeed compared to the go to college get a CFI rating and then a job as a regional F/O. Is it guaranteed to work? Nothing in life is guaranteed, but it has worked for others.

That is the key. Nothing is guaranteed. Aviation has turned out to be a dead-end for so many people. Better to have credentials, so as to improve one's chances.

I had numerous colleagues at ERAU who earned their Aeronautical Science degree there, were hired as instructors after they graduated, only instructed, and were hired by the regionals almost as soon as they hit 1500-2000 hours with the appropriate amount of multi. By the way, Yip, they were hired with instructing time only and not "TJPIC." Did I not mention that the four-year degree came in the package. Substitute Purdue, U.N.D., Southeast Oklahoma State U., etc., for ERAU and the story is the same.

Or else, MAPD. I don't care especially for Mesa as a company, but the program works and you don't have to stay there forever. It potentially gets one into the right seat of TJ equipment at 300 hours. An A.S. degree is part of that program. You can move on as soon as you build enough Part 121 "TJPIC" appropriate to your next job.

 

[pilotyip]

A real degree

A real degree leads has market value that leads to employment in a career field. A degree in women's studies without going on to law school etc. does not lead to a high paying starting job, nor does aviation technology without an A&P certificate. Much better career starters are available in the skilled trades that do not require a four-year degree.

 

[pilotyip]

Legal SIC

If you are flying a CA-212 in the right seat, it is legal MEL turbin SIC. To log it, you need to go home and read the ops manual, make three T/O's and landings per year. And then you are a 100% legal CA-212 SIC.

 

[labbats]

Ask if they are looking for F/O’s. You will probably be one of the first they think of when hiring comes. Fly the turbo prop for a year or so. Until your hours get into the 1200 range with a good amount of MEL.

This made me laugh and laugh.

I had two walked in resumes and the captain who I'd be flying with talking directly to the hiring director of a turboprop cargo company. I flew the plane down there on a mx flight with the captain, had a mock interview that went well, but was told at 700 hours of flight experience that I wasn't worthy yet. At 1200 I still got passed over. And all this with a 4 year degree and another 2 year degree in aviation. Yet somehow, some 18 year old ramper is going to get hired at 500 hours. Yeah, it's happened in the late 90s, but I seriously doubt it's going to happen again anytime soon.

There's an exception to every rule, but to use that as an example of how to get ahead in general is painting a false picture.

 

[pilotyip]

Happened in 2002 in Hancock, Mich

Exact story, Superior Aviation, 500 hours Comm, Inst MEL right into the right seat of a metro.

 

[labbats]

I'll say it again.

There's an exception to every rule, but to use that as an example of how to get ahead in general is painting a false picture.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Exception" kool-aid

There's an exception to every rule, but to use that as an example of how to get ahead in general is painting a false picture.

Arguing exception. My point, exactly.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

So, now, an aviation degree, along with women's studies, is not a "real" degree?? Baloney, Yip. Any degree, as long as it comes from an accredited college, is a "real" degree. I'll bet your house is always freshly-pained and your lawn freshly-mowed. The point being is there is no shortage of aspirees trying this strategy. There are only so many houses to be painted and lawns to be mowed in exchange for flight time. I'd be careful about giving/receiving this kind of advice. The time may not be legally loggable. Insurance requirements may preclude "riders." Moreover, these opportunities, in reality, are few and far between.You don't know that for sure, because dozens of others try the same strategy. What about the other jobs in which more education than high school is being sought? Without that education, those folks are SOL. Moreover, how many companies will hire some 19-year-old with a thousand hours to drive around its turbine airplane. Not many.That is the key. Nothing is guaranteed. Aviation has turned out to be a dead-end for so many people. Better to have credentials, so as to improve one's chances.

I had numerous colleagues at ERAU who earned their Aeronautical Science degree there, were hired as instructors after they graduated, only instructed, and were hired by the regionals almost as soon as they hit 1500-2000 hours with the appropriate amount of multi. By the way, Yip, they were hired with instructing time only and not "TJPIC." Did I not mention that the four-year degree came in the package. Substitute Purdue, U.N.D., Southeast Oklahoma State U., etc., for ERAU and the story is the same.

Or else, MAPD. I don't care especially for Mesa as a company, but the program works and you don't have to stay there forever. It potentially gets one into the right seat of TJ equipment at 300 hours. An A.S. degree is part of that program. You can move on as soon as you build enough Part 121 "TJPIC" appropriate to your next job.

Seem you have an answer for everything-so sanctimonious.

Yip has a point regarding real degrees. A law, medical, engineering, physics and chemistry degrees for example definitely are more useful and hold a greater credibility in overall job marketability. Notice that airlines don't care what your major is in your degree. Pilots holding degrees I've just described will always have more options outside the aviation profession than the holder of degrees in aviation tech, womens studies, etc, etc!

I'm sure if I surfed the internet I can get a degree in bulls**t!

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly Dogs, at least someone is getting it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Sanctimony

Seem you have an answer for everything-so sanctimonious.

There is no sanctimony. Just fact. Any degree, as long as it's from an accredited college, has value for the simple reason that with one anyone can apply for any job that states, "college degree preferred or required," viz:

Notice that airlines don't care what your major is in your degree.!

 

[qmaster3]

There is no sanctimony. Just fact. Any degree, as long as it's from an accredited college, has value for the simple reason that with one anyone can apply for any job that states, "college degree preferred or required," viz:

Some more than others.

 

[pilotyip]

Again preferred means "We would like you to have one, but not required” Superior skills, desire and a great personality will overcome the check in the preferred column. Do me a favor Bobby list all the airlines currently hiring that make the possession of 4-yr degree a show stopper, I will help you out
UPS and FedEx.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Preferred"

Again preferred means "We would like you to have one, but not required” Superior skills, desire and a great personality will overcome the check in the preferred column.

"Preferred," in this context, really means you d@mn well better have one or you might not be called. With the degree, your chances of being called improve. If you are not called, you won't be given the opportunity to exhibit your "superior skills, desire and great personality," and, thus, be able to overcome the checkmark. I know it well; I've been there. Go see my other posts.

 

[pilotyip]

I see non-degreed guys being called for interviews at good places to work all the time and most of the time they get hired, How come these non-degreed guys got hired in front of you? Because they have proved themselves logging Part 121 TJ PIC and you did not have those cerdentials so in spite of having a degree you could not get hired.

 

[coolyokeluke]

And WTF does having to graduate high school on time have anything with being a professional pilot. Nothing I have learned in highschool has helped me with anything to do with flying.

I'm sorry about your grandmother.

I instucted a 17 year old girl who was a high school dropout. She had huge gaps in her knowlege of math and physical science that made teaching her very labor intensive for me, expensive and difficult for her. If nothing you've learned in high school has helped you with your flying your education is sorely lacking. Your career as a pilot will suffer, or the road to fly bigger and faster equipment for more pay will take longer. You got a lucky break getting to fly an aircraft your father bought; good for you I'm envious. But it will only carry you so far.

 

[bobbysamd]

Because they have proved themselves logging Part 121 TJ PIC and you did not have those cerdentials so in spite of having a degree you could not get hired.

That is baloney, Yip, and you know it. Either that, or you know nothing about regional airline hiring.

I was a flight instructor at ERAU in the late '80s-early '90s. Most of my colleagues were ERAU graduates. They were all flight instructors, just like me. I will repeat: college graduates. As they hit times, mostly regional airlines and a couple of freight picked them up. Their only professional experience was as flight instructors. Not one had "TJPIC." Not one. Not even Part 135 experience. In fact, we had one instructor, hired from the outside, just like me, who, in fact had freight and 135 ditch tours experience. Very well qualified and sharp gal. She could not gain any interest from the regionals. So much for your "TJPIC" theory.

 

[pilotyip]

Skip the regionals

Guys logging TJ PIC skip the regional route, unless it is straight to the left seat.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The turbojet PIC theory is a crock...

3 of the 3 friends I have at DAL had ZERO hours turbojet/turboprop PIC between them when they were hired. They were all regional F/O's.

Although....3 of the 3 had college.


Not saying jet pic time is not valuable, but it certainly IS NOT required, nor very important....in fact, it is far less important than a "useless" degree.


and really...what kind of place are people going stright to the left seat at?

.

 

[pilotyip]

And your point 200 concurs with exatly what I posted, pilots with TJ PIC at an air carrier skip the regional route

 

[bobbysamd]

I wanted a regional job, only . . . .

And your point 200 concurs with exatly what I posted, pilots with TJ PIC at an air carrier skip the regional route

Once again, Yip, may I respectfully suggest that you run a search of my posts. A good, or even fair, regional was my goal, only. As a somewhat older career-changer and knowing myself well, I knew the regionals were a realistic goal, and one with which I was fully content.

Moreover, I have a former student who went from Skywest FO to FedEx. I.e., no "TJPIC" but an ERAU Aeronautical Science four-year college degree. During that time, she was on Flight Fellowship, meaning she built time at Riddle instructing before graduating.

Finally, besides Gulfstream, who is hiring 121 street captains?

 

[bobbysamd]

You make it sound as if a degree and regional FO experience are the only pre-req's.

That is not what I wrote. I never said that a degree and regional experience were the only prerequisites. I was pointing out that my former student got on with a 121 carrier without "TJPIC." She did have a degree. Compare to what Yip wrote, above

Because they have proved themselves logging Part 121 TJ PIC and you did not have those cerdentials so in spite of having a degree you could not get hired.

 

[pilotyip]

YIP people rule!

 

[Frank Towns]

Turbine PIC does'nt seem like its quite enough right now. With the more utilization of RJ's it seems like us T-Prop guys are sitting in no mans land right now.

The few guys who are hiring and would be a step up for us just are'nt looking at Civilian TProp guys. Its unfortunate, but I have seen a shift in hiring, and lots of prop guys like me are just waiting to get into jet stuff, without taking a big pay cut or a lateral move in the industry.

Who would have guessed that the industry would have done what it has when I started flying Turbo Props 5 years ago. Its a bummer.
Once again guys fly for fun, and enjoy the ride, because it sometimes sucks. Don't do it for the cash.

 

[SWA/FO]

Go YIP!!!!

 

[pilotyip]

Another YIP pilot who escaped!

 

[pilotyip]

Frank it is time to apply for a TJ job.