ALPA's Scope Defense - Incompetence?

[~~~^~~~]

If ALPA indeed is trying to clip the wings of the Regional carriers, the union has not succeeded, said Woerth. "We are the most incompetent negotiators in history.... every RJ that has been built has been flown immediately." This is not however, however, for lack of trying.

Source: Air Transport World - June 2002

ALPA's latest defense to RJDC claims are that the union's attempts to harm their members at Regional carriers have been incompetent. Simply amazing, the union does not deny the intentions of scope, just that they have failed and should not be held accountable for harm they intended to cause, but have been unable to achieve.

But we can fully expect ALPA to keep working away at destroying the lives of their members who are not employed at a mainline carrier.... In the meantime the furloughed members at Delta are the guys really paying the price.

When will mainline pilots demand one list?

 

[DC8Driver]

If you are not at a major....ALPA is your enemy.

 

[FL000]

If ALPA indeed is trying to clip the wings of the Regional carriers, the union has not succeeded, said Woerth. "We are the most incompetent negotiators in history.... every RJ that has been built has been flown immediately." This is not however, however, for lack of trying.

prof,

This quote appears to be heavily tongue-in-cheek. I'd say an accurate paraphrase would be, "How can regional carriers think that we are misrepresenting them? If that were our goal, our success would be represented in canceled orders and regional furloughees. Since the opposite has occured, the accusations must be unfounded."

I'm not defending ALPA vs. regionals per se, but I don't think this comment is the smoking gun.

Who added the "lack of trying" comment? Was that you or the author?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Judging from some of the comments of some regional folks there is discontent with the representation ALPA gives them. However, don't hear a battle cry to give ALPA the ol' heave ho. Curious as to how deep the division really is. Obviously at CAL it was deep enough and at UPS several years ago.

 

[ifly4food]

Judging from some of the comments of some regional folks there is discontent with the representation ALPA gives them. However, don't hear a battle cry to give ALPA the ol' heave ho. Curious as to how deep the division really is. Obviously at CAL it was deep enough and at UPS several years ago.

No offense, but maybe you don't hear it because you're not working for an airline. If you were here, you would hear the resentment loud and clear.

Unfortunately, getting rid of ALPA is not a good solution because at least now they have a legal obligation to help us. If we broke away, nothing would stop them from actively underming the "regional" pilots.

 

[surplus1]

IFF

Congratulations! I see that you're begining to get the message. Welcome aboard.

 

[PuffDriver]

No offense, but maybe you don't hear it because you're not working for an airline. If you were here, you would hear the resentment loud and clear.

Unfortunately, getting rid of ALPA is not a good solution because at least now they have a legal obligation to help us. If we broke away, nothing would stop them from actively underming the "regional" pilots.

Exactly, leaving just isn't as lucrative. Incidentally, it's just unbelievable that whatever~~~^~~~ is can't read sarcasm. I notice that he doesn't post it on the ALPA board because he knows he would get smeared. It's going to be very hard to prove damages when the only ones hiring are Comair and ASA. Stifling career expectations?!? I have to laugh.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

If you are not at a major....ALPA is your enemy.

If you are not at a major but would like to be....ALPA is your friend.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you are not at a major but would like to be....ALPA is your friend.

I know 805 pilots who might beg to differ.... How have ALPA's scope policy protected the jobs of mainline pilots?

Only an idiot keeps trying the same procedure when the results are repeated failure. If Duane Woerth is being sarcastic and laughing at himself, what does it say about his leadership? For all of us the scope walls that separate our union is a tragedy, not a joke.

It is easy to quote furlough figures without realizing that each one of those folks is unemployed, probably scared and under enormous family pressures. I watched the toll repeated furloughs took on my father and do not wish this sort of anguish on anyone.

Is the pride of feeling that some Delta pilots are superior to Connection pilots worth the cost? How many junior Delta pilots are worth sacrificing to promote the highest pay rate on the planet? Nearly one in ten is on the street now and management's forecast is around 15% of the seniority list.

Now tell me, how does ALPA's policies promote those with major airline aspirations?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Well, I'm one of the 805, so only 804 could differ with me!

ALPA's policies have failed, but not because we have been too tough on scope, as you allege, but because we have not been tough enough.

If we had held the line long ago, mgt would have been forced to put all of those growth airplanes at mainline, not commuters. That would have, and still could, help thousands of those still hoping to get a mainline job.

That being said, I believe ASA and CMR should be on our list (with a staple). However, we would still need to scope other, non- owned rj operators (more of the same "idiotic" strategy).

 

[FlyingSig]

well, maybe 803....

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

IFF, et.al.,
"Unfortunately, getting rid of ALPA is not a good solution..."
That is kind of what I am driving at. With all the complaining where do you go from here and/or what do you do?
To a certain degree I can understand your frustration. Politics is a similar thing. If your views, for example, are more conservative then you'll lean Republican. But if the party does something you don't like chances are you're still not going to side with Democrats so you stay where you are. Granted, you can go to a third party but historically it hasn't worked out.
Apologize for poking my nose into this but I find the debate interesting. Also wish everyone well and hope it can be worked out. It is a shame this issue has caused grief for a lot of people. Kind of takes the wind of your sail when it comes to enjoying the actual job of flying.

 

[ifly4food]

Surplus:
Why does this shock you? I've said before that I wholeheartedly agree ALPA favors the "major" pilots over "regional" pilots. I have the message, but I still don't think a lawsuit is the answer. I know, everything else has been tried. We'll see what happens, won't we?

PuffDriver:
Glad to see you made it here.
What did you mean by "leaving isn't as lucrative"?
I assume you mean not as lucrative as a lawsuit? That's a cheap shot. Especially since we don't all support the RJDC movement.

FDJ:

If we had held the line long ago, mgt would have been forced to put all of those growth airplanes at mainline, not commuters. That would have, and still could, help thousands of those still hoping to get a mainline job.

Come on! I usually respect your opinions, but you must realize this is fantasy. If you held the line and the growth was all at mainline, it would only mean that you'd have that many more on furlough. They would be making the same cuts. In fact, they'd be making more cuts because the profits from the cash cows known as ASA and Comair wouldn't be holding you up.
Are you upping the rhetoric because Puff arrived?

That being said, I believe ASA and CMR should be on our list (with a staple). However, we would still need to scope other, non- owned rj operators (more of the same "idiotic" strategy).

That's an excellent statement. I would sign off on that today. How do we make it happen? I'm serious, let's do it.

 

[ACWild]

Is having one list really going to solve any problems?
As I understand it, one list will give a company alot of flexibility in right-sizing aircraft for the particular markets and in turn benefit the labor group by having wholly owned employees working the routes.
I'll use AMR as an example... AMR management has stated that they are willing to "look into" merging seniority lists, but there's no way that they will merge AA with AE. This will basically result in an erosion of the premium jobs at AA as AMR takes advantage of no scope limitations and floods the market with RJs. Sure, we'll all have mainline numbers, but many of us will still be flying under a piece of garbage contract with Chautauqua's management lurking in the shadows for more opportunities.

 

[NYRANGERS]

well, maybe 803....

802

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Come on! I usually respect your opinions, but you must realize this is fantasy. If you held the line and the growth was all at mainline, it would only mean that you'd have that many more on furlough. They would be making the same cuts. In fact, they'd be making more cuts because the profits from the cash cows known as ASA and Comair wouldn't be holding you up.
Are you upping the rhetoric because Puff arrived?
[/b]




---------- I don't know who Puff is, but a fellow Delta guy is always welcome. I can use all the help I can get! I feel like I've been holding down the fort waiting for reenforcements who have really been taking thier time. That being said, I don't change my posts to fit the audience, I try to change the audience with my posts. see the difference?

I have made the point many times that had ALL the majors held the line on rj's, mgt would have had no choice but to put them on mainline. I don't think that is fantasy at all. There may have been the same amount of furoughs (doubtful, because you are hiring), but the "cash cows" would have been mainline airplanes, thereby creating more mainline jobs. I don't see the confusion. It is the same concept as onelist, just done before the creation or use of commuter airlines.




That's an excellent statement. I would sign off on that today. How do we make it happen? I'm serious, let's do it. [/B]

----------I wish I knew. I have contacted my leadership, as I am sure you have. I believe a request for a staple from the CMR and ASA leadership would go a long way towards alleviating the suspicion that the PID was a seniority grab. I think that a lot of DALPA guys are concerned with motives, especially in light of the fact that the MEC's created an integrated list between CMR and ASA, but did not attach it to the bottom of ours. That has made a lot of people nervous about losing seniority, and therefore, against the PID. I feel that in order to get the support of DALPA, a staple must assured.

A prenup with a staple would lead to many more people joining us in our desire for onelist. Without a staple, I'm afraid it will just be the status quo, which ain't no good for none of us!

 

[NYRANGERS]

Tudor1
How do you equate AA's buyout of Reno to that of Comair's purchase?

 

[trainerjet]

Tudor 1,

I understand what you were saying. I stand corrected and have removed my previous post.

 

[PuffDriver]

Surplus:
PuffDriver:
Glad to see you made it here.
What did you mean by "leaving isn't as lucrative"?
I assume you mean not as lucrative as a lawsuit? That's a cheap shot. Especially since we don't all support the RJDC movement.


<<<<Thanks for the words IFF. Cheap shot? First, it wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at the ~~~^~~~ guy. The lawsuit is silly. There is no way you can represent one without hurting another. NO WAY. These guys are firing a shot in the dark hoping it will hit the target. My analysis is right on the money,


FDJ:


Come on! I usually respect your opinions, but you must realize this is fantasy. If you held the line and the growth was all at mainline, it would only mean that you'd have that many more on furlough. They would be making the same cuts. In fact, they'd be making more cuts because the profits from the cash cows known as ASA and Comair wouldn't be holding you up.
Are you upping the rhetoric because Puff arrived?
[/b]

I would go as far to say that the company has little desire to make money right now. They definitely wanted to lose money for two consecutive quarters to release them from the block limits. Creative accounting is a wonderful thing. They are struggling to show a loss with positive cash flow as it is so that they don't lose their grip on the arbitrator's wee wee. Comair and ASA have little to do with it IMO.

Puff

 

[NYRANGERS]

Let me clarify, Many think that if the Comair or ASA pilots somehow would ever get integrated into the DAL list they are getting a free ride. My point was that they are not getting a free ride, just as the reno pilots did not get a free ride into the AMR list, just as the TWA pilots did not get a free ride into the AMR list. How are the rest of my comments off base? Why wouldn't the connection pilots want as many Rj's as possible to further their careers. Do you think the Delta pilots are concerned about Delta connection pilots interests, no they are concerned about their interests, as they should be.

Okay flame my views.....................................

Again, how do you equate buyouts of TWA and Reno to Comair? I am not flaming I am just wondering.

IMO there is a big difference. Senoirity integration language in contracts usually talk about like aircraft.

Further more we would have to give big concessions to get you stapled and then Delta could go to Chataqua, SkyWest, or any other similar airline and use them and stagnate the rest of us. I don't see the cost of a staple equating to the result.


Again, just my opinion..