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ALPA's newest message to East US Airways Pilots

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MK82Man

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Posts
210
JUST THE FACTS
Issue 2, 17 September 2007
A Publication of the Airline Pilots Association INTL

Changing Unions to Change Seniority?

Look Before You Leap


The self-appointed leaders of the movement to establish an independent union for US Airways pilots want East pilots to think that support for their outfit is a one-way ticket to getting the seniority arrangement that they claim that pre-merger US Airways pilots deserve. These pilots say that, because seniority is part of a contract between labor and management, they can bargain away the results of the Nicolau award, make an agreement with management to change seniority, and put West pilots in their “rightful” place. They even promise to make “date of hire” seniority a part of the new union’s constitution and bylaws.

Do all East pilots believe that? If you think it’s so simple, unwelcome developments await. Why, if it’s that easy, have ALPA pilots just like you repeatedly discussed and decided to retain merger policy and make its results final and binding? Why didn’t they just leave seniority to be bargained like duty rigs, pay rates, benefits?

Here's why:

First, can a new union just bargain away the results of the seniority award?

Virtually everyone agrees that a new union will be bound to honor the existing agreements between ALPA and US Airways/America West—including the Transition Agreement (which requires the parties to implement the results of ALPA Merger Policy in a new, single agreement). So a new union (if it wants to get out of the seniority award) would have to negotiate with management and get management to agree to reject the award.

This means that management would have to be willing to accept years of litigation, legal costs, and substantial risk, knowing full well that there will be instant lawsuits by West pilots. Is it realistic? What if management, instead, refuses to bargain changes to the Transition Agreement? What if management, based on legal grounds and risk, won’t agree to throw out or modify the seniority list and the Nicolau award? And what are the financial and legal risks to an independent union and those who pay dues to it? There will be years of paying lawyers before the legal dust settles (if it ever does). Will the independent union win in court after spending all that money? Without financial support from West pilots, how much will it cost East pilots to pursue this course?

The supporters of a new union assume that management will agree to a new seniority list and that this agreement will be upheld by the courts. They refer to lawsuits where ALPA successfully defended changes in seniority—for example, the agreement with United that restored the seniority of the Group of 570 (new-hires who honored the United strike in 1985) over the seniority of pilots hired during or immediately after the strike. (Have they told you that United pilots gave up $200 million in contract improvements, according to the court, to get United to put the striking 570 ahead of replacements and others?) The case the new union leaders point to is Rakestraw v. United Airlines and ALPA, 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992). The Seventh Circuit judges said things in that case that you haven’t been told about:
  • “[A] union may not take away the seniority of some employees for no reason other than that the losers have too few votes to affect the outcome of an intra-union election. . . .”
  • “[A] union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than to advance one group of employees over another. The change must rationally promote the aggregate welfare of employees in the bargaining unit.”
Does it still seem simple, or do these words raise questions about how successful a new union would be?

Other judges considered ALPA Merger Policy when some Air Wisconsin pilots tried to get out of a seniority award in a merger with Mississippi Valley by (unsuccessfully) trying to change unions (Air Wisconsin Pilots Protection Committee v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213, 7th Cir. 1990). These judges said:
  • “We need not decide whether, if the plaintiffs and their allies ever succeed in ousting ALPA in favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators' award, the matter of seniority can be reopened in collective bargaining negotiations with the airline, or otherwise revisited. The plaintiffs say the award became a provision of the collective bargaining agreement and expired when that agreement expired. We leave aside the merit of this contention beyond noting that an attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty of fair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool [italics added].”
Does this sound familiar?

Second, what would happen in the unlikely event that a new union succeeded in changing the seniority list and successfully defended the lawsuits?

This is a classic case of “be careful what you wish for.” The new-union promoters argue that seniority can be changed at will. If the courts somehow agree that the independent union can stick it to the pre-merger America West pilots, then the same union can stick it right back to the remaining pre-merger US Airways pilots—with interest—when West pilots and new-hires outnumber East pilots. Back and forth it will go while management looks on and exacts its payment for every seniority U-turn. What do your job security and contract look like in that world? Does it still look so easy?

This is why ALPA pilots like you developed merger policy in the first place. The judges in the Air Wisconsin case had it right when they talked about ALPA Merger Policy. They concluded that
  • “The alternative to placing so much power in the hands of an arbitrator would be to encourage continuing and acrimonious disputes among workers by opening seniority to continual revision.”
  • “The reason for the policy [of finality] is not hard to see. If ALPA were free to ignore the merged seniority list, the employees of the post-merger airline would have very little job security; as a concomitant, disputes over seniority would fester—as they have done in this case, in which plaintiffs are indirectly challenging the finality of the merged seniority list.”
  • “The system that ALPA has created for determining seniority in a merged workforce is not biased in favor of one group of workers or prejudiced against another. It was as likely to yield an award in favor of Air Wisconsin’s pilots as in favor of Mississippi Valley’s. It is fair, and nothing more is required to comply with the duty of fair representation.”
So these federal judges got it. If a seniority award means nothing and everyone’s seniority is always on the table, your seniority may be served up as the next course. When will that end? Does it still seem easy?

Third, if you think ALPA policy is a problem now, see what it looks like when you’re outside the union.

The leaders who want a new union know something they’re not telling you. They’ve told you that ALPA Merger Policy doesn’t apply to an independent union. Then what happens when Mr. Parker decides to sell US Airways to another airline—most likely a larger ALPA carrier. Who will protect your seniority then? If East pilots trash the Nicolau award, what will happen in the next seniority integration with another arbitrator? What will stop another ALPA pilot group from trying to impose on you, one way or another, the same outcome that American pilots imposed on TWA pilots? Does the course still seem straightforward?

The questions are difficult but the message is simple: If you think that seniority problems are solved or helped by changing to a different union, you should look very carefully before you leap.
 
While I think the East is trying to overturn something that they agreed to and now want to change it. I do think that this comment:

Third, if you think ALPA policy is a problem now, see what it looks like when you’re outside the union.

The leaders who want a new union know something they’re not telling you. They’ve told you that ALPA Merger Policy doesn’t apply to an independent union. Then what happens when Mr. Parker decides to sell US Airways to another airline—most likely a larger ALPA carrier. Who will protect your seniority then? If East pilots trash the Nicolau award, what will happen in the next seniority integration with another arbitrator? What will stop another ALPA pilot group from trying to impose on you, one way or another, the same outcome that American pilots imposed on TWA pilots? Does the course still seem straightforward?

Don't leave us or else. Much like a battered wife syndrome. Can't break ranks with alpa.
 
I have to agree that dumping ALPA will not change the award. I still think the US Airways' pilots have the right idea to dump ALPA. When was the last time ALPA signed a contract that was not concessionary in nature for a mainline carrier? A strong union was really needed when the major carriers started going to bankruptcy court to get concessions from the pilots. ALPA failed miserably and wiped out years of negotiating. This award was just the straw that broke the camel's back. By the way, I am not a US Airways pilot. I do not even fly for an ALPA represented carrier so I will be the first to say that I probably do not know what I am talking about.
 
I say let the fools blow their own foot off.

Then U management can slowly transfer their airplanes over to the west side and begin hiring again.

Who wants club footed pilots anyway.

This will be fun to watch. Just bough a crapload of Kettlecorn for the show.................
 
I have to agree that dumping ALPA will not change the award. I still think the US Airways' pilots have the right idea to dump ALPA. When was the last time ALPA signed a contract that was not concessionary in nature for a mainline carrier? A strong union was really needed when the major carriers started going to bankruptcy court to get concessions from the pilots. ALPA failed miserably and wiped out years of negotiating. This award was just the straw that broke the camel's back. By the way, I am not a US Airways pilot. I do not even fly for an ALPA represented carrier so I will be the first to say that I probably do not know what I am talking about.

You are right. ALPA has signed many concessionary contract lately. However, it must be noted that all these contracts were ratified by a line pilot vote. Further, look at ALPA clientele. They are primarily legacy airlines. I sincerely doubt any union, Teamsters, SWAPA, NPA you name it could have negotiated pay raises at these legacies during the past few years.

What will show ALPA's true colors is whether they turn things around during these next few legacy contracts during good times. If they can't make some gains, it is time to look elsewhere for representation. I think they will step up. There are many of us watching.
 
You are right. ALPA has signed many concessionary contract lately. However, it must be noted that all these contracts were ratified by a line pilot vote. Further, look at ALPA clientele. They are primarily legacy airlines. I sincerely doubt any union, Teamsters, SWAPA, NPA you name it could have negotiated pay raises at these legacies during the past few years.

What will show ALPA's true colors is whether they turn things around during these next few legacy contracts during good times. If they can't make some gains, it is time to look elsewhere for representation. I think they will step up. There are many of us watching.

If ALPA were a great union, it would have stopped the first airline from taking a concession. Instead ALPA decided to let every pilot group take on its airline by itself. There is no point in being in a national union if you have to go against management by yourself anyway. Every ALPA pilot should have went on strike the second one concessionary contract was put on any pilot group. This will never happen though because everyone is out for himself or herself. Hell, ALPA has members that scabbed over its own picket lines over 20 years ago. I guess time heals all wounds. I know that it is not ALPA's fault. There is no unity, therefore our pilot unions are worthless. Even the pilots in charge of the unions are out to better themselves, not the group or groups they represent. ALPA is about the money and only the money.
 
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ALPA was always happy to take my money while I worked for 3 yrs and 2 seperate companies. The only thing they ever did for me was TAKE MY MONEY... Oh yeah, and furlough me. Now IM represented by a REAL UNION.

Go for it Easties, what do you have to look forward to? More of the same? NO THANKS!

I wish you guys the best. Fight the good fight... I wish better for you all.
 
IMO, the USAir MEC brought much of this against themelves.... however so did ALPA......

The chickens are coming home to roost.... time for more popcorn......

Anyone want to talk about national seniority and "brand scope"..... Anyone want to start a new union?

It's time for a change....
 
If ALPA were a great union, it would have stopped the first airline from taking a concession.

The BK laws, combined with the RLA, make for an extremely effective anti-labor tool.

I think most pilots would have loved to strike when the sh!t starting hitting the fans. However, the current legal system would have had all of those strikers financially liable for the lost revenue. How can you fight a system like that?
 
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The BK laws, combined with the RLA, make for an extremely effective anti-labor tool.

I think most pilots would have loved to strike when the sh!t starting hitting the fans. However, the current legal system would have had all of those strikers financially liable for the lost revenue. How can you fight a system like that?

I doubt any pilot "would have loved to strike".... That isn't anything someone should "love to do".....

That being said, at a certain point, ALPA has the choice to declare a national SOS.... It could have been done, but it wasn't.....

One pilot group cannot stand alone..... If everyone isn't willing to lay it on the line, then don't expect anyone else to lay it on the line....
 

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