ALPA's 70 seat scope dam has a hole in it

[~~~^~~~]

I don't know why regional guys want to see these E170s and E190s at the regionals.

WE DON'T

It is mainline pilots who negotiated these contracts. That is the point! The Regional Guys are locked out!

Furloughed Again: The mainline guys have been defining the flying they do not wish to perform. Again, this is not up to us.

 

[FlamingFUPA]

~~~^~~~, this has been a great thread with great points. Maybe this can open some eyes. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[General Lee]

WE DON'T

It is mainline pilots who negotiated these contracts. That is the point! The Regional Guys are locked out!

Furloughed Again: The mainline guys have been defining the flying they do not wish to perform. Again, this is not up to us.

Come on now, I bet 548 Delta furloughs would love to fly something in Delta mainline paint right now. I am sure Dalpa would negotiate a pay rate for the E190 or even the E170. But, that would be a SLAP IN THE FACE TO YOUR SENIOR PILOTS AT DCI who don't want to leave the left seat and start over in the right seat. You may even file a lawsuit claiming it is NOT FAIR. Hey, CAL is hiring right now Fins, tell your senior friends at ASA to throw in an app at CAL. Sure, you may lose your 4 weeks of vacation, and the left seat status and weekends off, but you will follow the same route taken by thousands of NORMAL PILOTS----leaving the regional and starting at a Major.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Come on now, I bet 548 Delta furloughs would love to fly something in Delta mainline paint right now. I am sure Dalpa would negotiate a pay rate for the E190 or even the E170.

Bye Bye--General Lee

OK, well then, do it.

There is nothing stopping your MEC from doing just what you propose. But, lets remeber how this happened to begin with. Your MEC recently sold the E170 (LOA46 wasn't it?). The Comair pilots wanted to talk brand scope and your MEC Chairman sucessfully stopped that from happening while at the same time creating a huge row over Comair's alleged refusal to hire Delta pilots. So instead of working out a win / win on te E170, your MEC sold it and Chautauqua operates it under Delta paint.

Good luck, but your MEC is not headed the direction you are talking about - I wish they were. Your MEC doesn't listen to me, so why don't you take some reponsibility and begin a grass roots effort?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

General,
I can tell you that there are far fewer of those "senior pilots" than you think. If DALPA did negotiate rates for any new airplanes for Delta that would bring all of the furloughs back and create more pilot slots, those 'seniors' would be much less than a hundred. They have 5 or 6 years left or less, they wouldn't go over anyway. Just as the top bunch at DAL or anywhere else who are in the top ranks would give up the left seat or weekends off. I am in the top third of the list and those around me who I have talked with would be happy as hell to get a job offer from DAL. So far that is not where things are heading by the looks of the industry though.... ok where are those F/O stripes...I just had them....

 

[General Lee]

If Delta were to come up with an order for EMB-190s, I can guarantee you that we would fight DCI getting them and we would bid for them. Why? They would be replacing our 737-200 flying. ALPA wants to keep as many high paying jobs at mainline so they can take more money out of our monthly paychecks. Is that good for DCI? Probably not, but that would allow our furloughs to come back sooner and eventually start hiring again. That would help you guys out I am sure. I will eventually volunteer for pilot hiring help (if they allow that), and I will make sure that we interview as many ASA pilots as possible. ATR-DRIVR, you will be the first one interviewed hopefully, followed by Fins (if he wants it) and Tim47SIP. It looks like there could be another huge push for early outs when and if we get pension relief (the lump sum option may be terminated---which would cause another wave before it happens), and then we may be really short. If we don't get pension relief from Congress, then there will certainly be another huge push. Sounds like there will be one regardless. We shall see.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

If Delta were to come up with an order for EMB-190s, I can guarantee you that we would fight DCI getting them and we would bid for them. Bye Bye--General Lee

Not if management dangled a pay raise in your face. Imagine if DL management offered a 20% pay raise and maybe an order for the 787, but in return you had to allow EMB-190's at DCI. I'm betting it would pass.

Of course, if fuel prices keep rising, DL will just file CH11 and get what they want there.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

General,

You make me giggle like a schoolgirl. You really think that they're not only going to welcome you into the pilot hiring board, but then also allow you to pick and choose those who you interview from an aviation message board on the internet???

Somehow I doubt that your opinion on "cool guys from the net" will go very far when it comes to calling folks to interview.

On a more serious note, what do you think of Burt Reonalds as Boss Hogg?

 

[FlyingDawg]

Another screw up by ALPA: They refused the Chautauqua pilots when they applied for unionship. I wonder if anyone is second guessing that decision!

 

[h25b]

On a more serious note, what do you think of Burt Reonalds as Boss Hogg?

I'll ring in on this one....

I believe this to be an example of gross negligence in the casting department. I had hoped that they would tap the talent of "Larry the Cable Guy" for that role ...

Get 'er done !!!!

 

[michael707767]

Not if management dangled a pay raise in your face. Imagine if DL management offered a 20% pay raise and maybe an order for the 787, but in return you had to allow EMB-190's at DCI. I'm betting it would pass.

Of course, if fuel prices keep rising, DL will just file CH11 and get what they want there.

I don't think they will offer a pay raise, but they will dangle some 787s, keeping the pension intact, and no more pay cuts, in return for 190s at DCI. As far as CH11, I think if they go that route they will be able to pretty much dictate pay rates and work rules for us, so why bother outsourcing? We would be pretty darn cheap at that point.

 

[General Lee]

General,

You make me giggle like a schoolgirl. You really think that they're not only going to welcome you into the pilot hiring board, but then also allow you to pick and choose those who you interview from an aviation message board on the internet???

Somehow I doubt that your opinion on "cool guys from the net" will go very far when it comes to calling folks to interview.

On a more serious note, what do you think of Burt Reonalds as Boss Hogg?

You never know. But, I know this, I will be RIGHT THERE, IN THEIR FACES, MAKING SURE I HAVE INPUT. I KNOW HOW TO BROWN NOSE----I GOT HIRED HERE, DIDN'T I? I CAN DO IT. And, quit giggling.


As far as Boss Hogg, yeah, I guess Burt Reynolds isn't a bad choice. I like that hot blonde, Jessica Simpson as Daisy, and Sean William Scott as Bo. Also, the singer who plays Unlce Jesse---I forgot his name---the guy who smokes weed a bunch----he was a good choice.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Crzipilot]

Yes, I will agree that they did, and the company agreed.

Now, jump foreward 20 years to where we are now. The Majors call the PDT, Comair, ASA, etc.. scooter trash, among other names. This could have been prevented by including ALL the flying under one carrier. IE. Delta flyes ALL of their aircraft from the ATR to the 777. That's not the case now is it?

Maybe we should leave ALPA out of this and let management decide who does what flying. I can just see you cringe at that idea.

Scope was broken, if I am not mistaken, when the first CRJ came onto the scene, then the 170 had to have violated somebodys scope. My point is, if a regional goes out and gets some Air Busses, or 737's that can be operated substantially less than what a major flies them for, watch scope be, yet again, tossed aside.

I really don't fault either side of the arguement, but I do believe that there are more painful times ahead for this industry until this, and other problems, are solved.

And uhmm...blzr....are youwilling to fly that bus or boeing for 80/hr left seat?

 

[aa73]

I hate to break it to you guys but outsourcing of mainline jobs has been happening for quite a while now in Europe. There is a British airline named GB Airways that flies A320s in British Airways paint and.... you guessed it, they are a "regional" airline.

If you want to see what's going to happen in the US for the foreseeable future, just look to Europe - tons of profitable LCCs flying "mainline equipment" (737s, A320s), profitable regional airlines flying "regional equipment" (which is to say, EMB 170s, 190s (eventually), yes, even A320s.) The only airlines losing money are the big legacy carriers still flying "legacy equipment" (widebodies, etc.)

Unfortunately, the domestic flying in a few years will be dominated by airlines like SWA, JBlue, Airtran, etc flying 737s 717s and A320s.... and also dominated by your Comairs, ASAs, CHQs etc. flying Emb170s, 190s, and eventually, Airbuses and probably Boeings. Why, because they are willing to do the flying for less than the mainline.

God help us all,
73

 

[General Lee]

I hate to break it to you guys but outsourcing of mainline jobs has been happening for quite a while now in Europe. There is a British airline named GB Airways that flies A320s in British Airways paint and.... you guessed it, they are a "regional" airline.

If you want to see what's going to happen in the US for the foreseeable future, just look to Europe - tons of profitable LCCs flying "mainline equipment" (737s, A320s), profitable regional airlines flying "regional equipment" (which is to say, EMB 170s, 190s (eventually), yes, even A320s.) The only airlines losing money are the big legacy carriers still flying "legacy equipment" (widebodies, etc.)

Unfortunately, the domestic flying in a few years will be dominated by airlines like SWA, JBlue, Airtran, etc flying 737s 717s and A320s.... and also dominated by your Comairs, ASAs, CHQs etc. flying Emb170s, 190s, and eventually, Airbuses and probably Boeings. Why, because they are willing to do the flying for less than the mainline.

God help us all,
73

Well, some of what you said is correct. GB Airlines (GB for Gibralter) started with their own 737s and then became a British susbsidiary. They don't have "regional" airplanes, never really had. They always flew from Gibralter to London and Manchester, which is a fairly long flight. Now they have A320s and A321s and fly to the Canary Islands as well as some Spansih and Morrocan destinations---which I wouldn't really consider "regional"---since Europe really isn't that large anyway. The flights from London to the Canaries are almost 6 hours long. British Airways never flew themselves to the Canaries, but the European charters were doing so well that they decided to bring GB along and offer them that flying under the British Banner. British Airways also has another feeder, called B-Med (British Mediteranean) which also flies in the British paintscheme but flies to some gawd-awful cities that the parent airline wouldn't want to fly to---like Beirut and Tehran. That would be like us giving ASA the right to fly nonstop to Medellin, Colombia. Enjoy that and bring some extra ransom money.

I don't really see the Majors farming that out, since our wages are now getting closer to the top regional pay anyway. Also, Europe is 15 or so countries blended into one continent, and it would be tougher to bring someone from the outside(another country) into our country without major oversight. And, even United didn't want Indy back in the fold, and they have A319s. That could have been your example, with Indy flying A319s for United. Didn't happen. Could you give me an example of a possible paring in the future in the US? Sure, CHQ or Republic may get some E190s for USAir, but I think that will be short lived under Parker.

For us to make money in ATL, we have to fly as many people into ATL as possible each day and make them connect. We fly more domestic 757s and 767s than anyone else. We have 764s flying from the West Coast and then connecting down to FLA. We have 777s flying from ATL to MCO. We have 14 daily widebodies from ATL to FLL. We fly Song 757s from FLA to BOS, JFK, BDL, LGA, LAX, LAS, EWR, etc. They are usually full. To combat the high fuel prices, we need to fly larger planes and fill them. So, you think ASA will take these flights? Doubt it again. Will they take some Dayton flights? Possibly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[aa73]

Thanks for the clarification Le Generale... I remember boarding a BA 737 at LGW last year and saw that A320 immaculate in the BA livery, and then, under the cockpit windows, "Operated by GB Airways"... I was thinking, dang, the BA pilots have a crappy scope clause!

Anyways, we at AA always marvel at the DL widebodies in FLL, PBI, LGA, MCO parked next to our puny "Super" 80s going to the same exact destinations (PBI-LGA, FLL-LGA, etc.) It'd be nice if AA started doing that, but our theory was always that the 80 makes a ton of money domestically with full loads, whereas our widebodies and 757s are busy pulling Carribean and South America duty. I think AA has more 757s/767s than DL but we primarily use them int'l, whereas you guys use them domestically and int'l. (Of course, the fact that we have 360 MD80s for domestic is part of the reason.)

I hope you're right in your assessment of not farming out the flying to the regionals, but unfortunately we are seeing more and more regional airlines adding 70 seat flying, and it's just a matter of time before it goes to 90 seats and more. Where does it stop? I think the single seniority list is a great solution, but I'm dreaming if that's ever gonna happen.

regards,
73

 

[General Lee]

Thanks for the clarification Le Generale... I remember boarding a BA 737 at LGW last year and saw that A320 immaculate in the BA livery, and then, under the cockpit windows, "Operated by GB Airways"... I was thinking, dang, the BA pilots have a crappy scope clause!

Anyways, we at AA always marvel at the DL widebodies in FLL, PBI, LGA, MCO parked next to our puny "Super" 80s going to the same exact destinations (PBI-LGA, FLL-LGA, etc.) It'd be nice if AA started doing that, but our theory was always that the 80 makes a ton of money domestically with full loads, whereas our widebodies and 757s are busy pulling Carribean and South America duty. I think AA has more 757s/767s than DL but we primarily use them int'l, whereas you guys use them domestically and int'l. (Of course, the fact that we have 360 MD80s for domestic is part of the reason.)

I hope you're right in your assessment of not farming out the flying to the regionals, but unfortunately we are seeing more and more regional airlines adding 70 seat flying, and it's just a matter of time before it goes to 90 seats and more. Where does it stop? I think the single seniority list is a great solution, but I'm dreaming if that's ever gonna happen.

regards,
73

Well, I hope we keep a mainline domestic operation too. I think we have the most 757s and 767s, and we definitely have the most domestic 767s. That is how we have the largest hub in the world in terms of PASSENGERS.(We have so many domestic 767s going in here)

I have heard complaints from Speedbird pilots in LGW too, they don't like flying the older 734s while GB is flying newer A321s next door. But, the Speedbird pilots eventually can fly the widebodies and have 24 hours in Antigua. The B-Med guys get to look forward to Beirut and Alexandria, Egypt. Some people don't care, some people do.

The thing I like about your fleet is the number of 777s. We only have 8, and we could use a bunch more, but don't have the cash-----we seem to only get favorable financing on RJs. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[aa73]

From what I heard from a DL buddy of mine, the 777 doesn't really fit the DL mold(the 767-400 does the same?), and there were runors that we were gonna swap some of our ex TWA 767s for your 777s... I know we could use more 777s since the company is looking to start New Delhi out of ORD or DFW.

Hope we all turn the corner here soon.
73

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Me either, but then again, if ASA bought J-31's, or BE1900's I would not be that excited about having them on my list either.

Why is that?