ALPA political strategy

[bart]

Thanks for reminding why I chose not to pursue a career with the airlines....

 

[SelectZoneFive]

Back!!! What did I miss?

(As a side note, I took the kids to see that new movie "Santa Clause" with Tim Allen. It was cute I recommend it.)

The statement that it was cute is simple my opinion it is not a fact. But I did make the statement that it was cute, that is a fact.

Hey Golden,

Calm down son, you sound all wound up.

I have a fix. Let’s discuss definitions! This may clear up the confusion.

No sarcasm, or witticisms that stun the crowd with their originality. Let’s get the dictionary.

Opinion:

Pronunciation: &-'pin-y&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
Date: 14th century
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

Fact:

Pronunciation: 'fakt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century
1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : FEAT b : CRIME <accessory after the fact> c archaic : ACTION
2 archaic : PERFORMANCE, DOING
3 : the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
- in fact : in truth


Please, do not tell us one of your opinions and claim it is fact. That it is incorrect.
Let’s try an example:

Snickers bars are better than chunky monkey ice cream.

This is not a fact. It is an opinion. That is my point.

Please do not get upset and keep repeating yourself like no one understands you, just get your general distinctions in order.

You wrote:
"The facts speak for themselves...all the collective bargaining and scope clauses created by ALPA have led to nothing more than persistent airline financial instability, and thousands of pilots on the street."

Hmmm.


If you maybe tried something like this instead:

I think that some of the current labor agreements, in place at some of the major carriers, have hindered them in the current economic downturn that we are experiencing. I would not be surprised to see more concessionary bargaining taking place in the future. I think that the past has shown that this happens more often than not in the cyclical industry we work in. I think ALPA like most labor unions tries to bargain increases during the good times and concessionary agreements during the bad times. It would appear to me, that what is happening is just the same old replay between labor and management, which has gone on since time immemorial. It is almost like the analogy of a seesaw finding its natural balance once a new weight has been introduced to one side.

See? One statement makes you sound like a raving rambling fanatic and the other makes you sound as if you have a thought out OPINION. Know, if someone wants to debate you on this, then you can seek out established facts to support your opinion.

If you want to win converts, then change your style. If you want to fight and alienate people, use your current style. (Please use this in one of your quotes, I have a $10.00 bet that you will.)

Sarcasm and humor can sometimes be miss-read. My goal was to be humorous with you. These places get too serious sometimes. (That’s an opinion, not a fact)

 

[Rvrrat]

Where's that Foghorn Leghorn sound clip when it's needed!!?

"I say, I say yer built too low. The fast ones just go over yer head."

 

[B1900DFO]

Golden,
Post sep 11 ual's daily loss exceeded the pilots daily payroll. Does that mean the current economic climate unfortunately does not support pilots being paid for the next 4-5 years. Are you familiar with the cyclical nature of this business. In the early 90's the majors were all thought to be on the verge of shutting down and then just a few years ago they were making record profits. Do you have any idea how much airlines are forced to shell out in security costs. I have heard about 30% of the cost of a ticket in many cases.

I think it is short-sighted to blame the industry's woes on what you refer to as "outrageous" pilot salaries. However it is interesting that you keep beeting the "one list" drum. Sounds to me like you can't wait to be making a white-collar salary with some decent workrules. Another one of your facts you refer to regionals doing the job for half the cost. That is a half-truth. The cost per seat mile is substantially higher in an rj than say a DAL 777 (whose capt is making about 260/hr). However in todays weak pricing climate airlines lose less money with the rj's.

Goldentrout please give me your thoughts on these next few statements. Do you think Alpa national had anything to do with Ual, UA, or DAL pilot payrates. Those rates were fought for by the pilot's respective MEC's and negotiators. Alpa national merely provides tools to help all Alpa carriers in their contracts. You bash Alpa but if they weren't around who would fight for you if you didn't want to take an unsafe airplane, or bust rest requirements. Do you think the FAA would fight for your job, the Republican party? Alpa national is merely a handful of volunteers that are fighting to protect our profession. Unfortuanatley as much as we like to hold ourselves in high esteem we could be replaced by a bunch of foreign nationals willing to work for room and board and a green card in no time. Guess what; Bush supports cabotage.

Also just for laughs show me a period of time in the last 20 years where Republicans have controlled the white house and the airlines and their pilots have thrived; or better yet the economy and the national deficit have thrived.

 

[Saabslime]

What a shame if the GOP does something good for our country besides smoog on some fat girl's dress

ROLMFAO!! Absolutely the funniest thing I've heard all day.

 

[goldentrout]

B1900DFO

Golden,
Post sep 11 ual's daily loss exceeded the pilots daily payroll. Does that mean the current economic climate unfortunately does not support pilots being paid for the next 4-5 years. Are you familiar with the cyclical nature of this business. In the early 90's the majors were all thought to be on the verge of shutting down and then just a few years ago they were making record profits. Do you have any idea how much airlines are forced to shell out in security costs. I have heard about 30% of the cost of a ticket in many cases.

I think it is short-sighted to blame the industry's woes on what you refer to as "outrageous" pilot salaries. However it is interesting that you keep beeting the "one list" drum. Sounds to me like you can't wait to be making a white-collar salary with some decent workrules. Another one of your facts you refer to regionals doing the job for half the cost. That is a half-truth. The cost per seat mile is substantially higher in an rj than say a DAL 777 (whose capt is making about 260/hr). However in todays weak pricing climate airlines lose less money with the rj's.

'Goldentrout please give me your thoughts on these next few statements. Do you think Alpa national had anything to do with UAl, UA, or DAL pilot payrates."

Look at the ALPA website and read Duane's latest strategy on how to keep pilot salaries where they are in the face of declining revenue. He says the main thing driving down revenue is the low ticket prices of Southwest Airlines...so he wants to get Southwest in ALPA...so then they can bargain for higher wages ...which will in turn (in theory) force Southwest to raise their prices...which will supposedly then make the market so that UAL, DAL, NW, AA, etc can compete with the likes of Southwest and the other low cost carriers.

So to me, the summary of this strategy is as follows. DAL, UAL, AA, NW are losing hundreds of millions of dollars every quarter. While employee overhead is really not that big a chunk of overall expenses, it is one of the only expenses that can be substantially changed.

Southwest, with their current wage structure, has made money in every quarter in their existence. If you look at the book "Flying Through Time," the airlines are perenial money losers...at best they make a profit about half the time, and end up furloughing thousands of employees every 6-10 years.

So ALPA's grand strategy is to take an airline (SW) which consistently grows and makes money, and turn it into a DAL or AA, which have lost over $800,000,000 in the in the last two quarters combined, and who have laid off 20,000 or so employees since 9/11. I'll let you all decide the merits of this strategy.

The economic boom of the late nineties was an aboration of economic activity, fueled mostly by speculative investing that led to much paper wealth, and unsustainable economic growth rates. The airlines (except Southwest) unbelievably based their business model on that unsustainable economic rate...the big 4 were losing money even before 9/11 in 2001. If you don't agree with me...go do some research in the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) by their analysts. For instance, in referring to UAL, they use terms like "the fox got into the hen house" in referring to last UAL pilot raise. WSJ lsmas the employee groups for being greedy, and mnagement for not being more financially discplined.

My goal is to have an airline industry where 10-20% of the employees don't get laid off every 10 years...where stock options as part of compensation would be worth something if the airlines could consistently make money...and where you don't have to try and time your hiring prospects to not be in the "furlough fodder" (bottom 20% of the seniority list).



"Those rates were fought for by the pilot's respective MEC's and negotiators. Alpa national merely provides tools to help all Alpa carriers in their contracts. You bash Alpa but if they weren't around who would fight for you if you didn't want to take an unsafe airplane, or bust rest requirements."

As I said in my first post, I think ALPA has done many good things for pilots in the non-financial arena.


"Also just for laughs show me a period of time in the last 20 years where Republicans have controlled the white house and the airlines and their pilots have thrived; or better yet the economy and the national deficit have thrived."


I think, my friend, you have a missunderstanding of who holds the purse strings in the country...Congress decides how the money gets spent, set tax rates, etc. Only once that I can remember in the last twenty years have the republicans controlled the...1994-1998...that was the about the beginning of the airline boom...then the Democrats took back Congress in early 1999...and have held at least the Senate or the house ever since...the airline boom peaked in 1999 and has been downhill ever since.


Selectzonefive

I appreciate your feedback...but to be honest with you, I'm more of straight shooter than your suggested way of writing

I just state what I see...the big 4 have all have scope clauses in place to supposedly protect pilot jobs...the big four all have at least 1000 or so pilots on furlough, with more to come (UAL announced 600 more on 1 Nov)...the airlines are losing hundereds of millions of dollars every quarter, and billions of dollars a year...to the point whre many are having to have government loans to bail them out, because private investors won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

Cyclical or not does matter to me...any company that can only make a profit 50% of the time...lays off 10-20% of it's work force every 10 yrs or so...and has to go the federal government for financing because the banking industry won't talk to them...is a failed business model.

The government board that decides airline loans told US Air and
UAL that they had to get concessions from their employee groups before they would even talk to them about a loan. The people who sit on these boards are fiancial and business experts...what they essentially told UAL is "your employee wage structure cannot be supported by the revenue we think you can generate. Lower your wage rates (all negotiated by unions such as ALPA), or no money for you."

It is NOT opinion that

1. All the major airlines have scope clauses to "protect" pilot jobs, yet the major airlines have thousands of pilots on the street, with more furloughs projected.

2. Many major airlines (such as UAL), cannot obtain private financing because the banking industry says they are too much of a risk.

3. The federal government will not give these airlines any money until they bring their overhead costs in line with revenue.

4. The only real cost the airlines can change is employee benefits...and most of these contracts have been negotiated by ALPA and other unions.

Ergo, I stand by my statement

"The facts speak for themselves...all the collective bargaining and scope clauses created by ALPA have led to nothing more than persistent airline financial instability, and thousands of pilots on the street."

Cyclical or not, these are the current results of ALPA contracts and scope clauses.

Gotta run...no time for spell check or grammar check

 

[SelectZoneFive]

Goldentrout said:
"I appreciate your feedback...but to be honest with you, I'm more of straight shooter than your suggested way of writing"


That is why you have no credibility as far as I am concerned.

You make gross generalizations, combine them, and then arrive at absurd conclusions. Then you repeat yourself and demand that people debate you with the same kind of elusive thinking that only you seem to posses.

I cannot debate the absurd, or entertain logic that is held together by cobwebs and old string.

I can debate factual material, trust me, my time in college competing on debating teams imbued me with the skills for that.

 

[goldentrout]

Selectzonefive

Most of what I've said applies to most of the airlines, but I will grant you that I am making generalizations that, though I consider to be valid, may not be applicable to each airline.

So let's get specific.

UAL.

1. The ALPA negotiated contract and signed in Oct 2000 gave the UAL pilots something like a 20-25% payraise. I can't locate the exact number, but in talking to my friends at UAL, those numbers are close.

2. Here are the yearly financial results for UAL from 1997-2001, according to the MSN.com financial website.

1997 - profit 949 million

1998 - profit 821 million

1999 - profit 1.2 billion

2000 - profit 50 million

2001 - loss 2.1 billion loss

2002 - loss 1.4 billion through 3 quarters

But, hey, they "deserved it (their contract)." UAL stock has dropped from a high or around $78 in Nov 1999 to $3.91 today. In the fourth quarter of 2000 (right after they signed their contract), UAL lost 124,000,000 + 2,000,000,000 in 2001 + 1,400,000,000 = 3,500,000,000 since they signed their contract!
Whoever UALALPA had as their financial advisers didn't do a very good job of predicting the financial future of UAL. Granted, no one could have foreseen 9/11, but UAL was losing millions in 200 and 2001 before 9/11. If the industry is so cyclical, then UALALPA should've seen the bad times coming, and negotiated a contract that would allow UAL to weather the bad times.

To me, UALALPA failed it's pilot group by being greedy, and not negotiating a reasonable contract that would have helped the company (and the pilot group) through the economic downturn. Instead, UAL is on the verge of bankruptcy, they've got 1,500 guys on the street, and they'll be taking an 18% pay cut on 1 Dec.


Delta airlines

1. DALPA has a scope clause in their contract that limits the amount of regional flying as a percentage of mainline flying, and limits the number of 70 seat RJs at Comair/ASA.

2. These scope provisions were supposed to "protect" mainline jobs.

3. Delta mainline has 1000 or so guys on furlough, probably more to come.

4. Comair offered DALPA a flow through and combined list a few years ago. DALPA would have none of it.

5. Comair/ASA hired something like 500 pilots in 2002, and will hire another 500-600 in 2003.

6. If there was a flow through and/or combined list, all the Delta furloughees from 9/11/2001 would be senior to all the Comair/ASA guys hired in 2002 and 2003...i.e. they'd all have jobs by the end of 2003 (assuming hiring projections are correct).


To me, DALPA, due to a rather condescending view of "regional' pilots, failed their pilot group. They refused a flow through and/or one list agreement, which would've given their pilot group maximum job protection from losing their jobs in an economic downturn. Now ASA/Comair are hiring. There are rumors of preferential hiring for Delta furloughees...right at the bottom of the ASA/Comair lists, instead of on the top of those lists if there had been a flow through agreement.

US Air

1. I used to fly for a US Air Express carrier. I've seen the "max pay to the last day" stickers on US Air mainline pilot bags.

2. Before 9/11, US Air had the highest cost per seat of any major airline.

3. US Air declared bankruptcy in 2002. Their pilot contract was signed in Sep 1997. According to SEC filings, US Air made 197,000,000 in 1999, lost 269,000,000 in 2000, lost 2,100,000,000 in 2001.

4. US Air has 1500 or so guys on the street.

5. The guys who are still have a job had to take a significant pay cut before the government would even entertain a loan.

To me, US Air ALPA failed it's members by negotiating a contract which pushed US Air into having the highest cost per seat of any major airline, with no prospect of revenue that could cover such high overhead costs.

Here are three examples of where either scope and/or excessive wages contributed to the financial demise of three major airlines, and the loss of thousands of pilot jobs. All these scope clauses and wage/benefit packages were negotiated by ALPA unions.

I'm taking your advice...I stopped generalizing and gave you three specific examples, backed up with researched data.

I can't conclude that pilot contracts solely contributed to the state of the major airlines today. I can conclude with reasonable certainity, though, that ALPA at these airlines failed to secure the job and financial security of its members due to greed and/or arrogance.

I admire your pushing me to narrow down my facts...I'm and Ayn Rand fan myself...but if these examples don't back up my statement

"The facts speak for themselves...all the collective bargaining and scope clauses created by ALPA have led to nothing more than persistent airline financial instability, and thousands of pilots on the street."

I don't know what more I can do to pursuade you. Maybe the best thing to do is wait 2 years or so, and then come back to this board and see what ALPA has accomplished as far as pilot job security and wages/benefits for its members.

Thanks for forcing me to be more specific...it trains my mind.

 

[goldentrout]

Just gotta put in a few (ok, many) last thoughts on this issue.

My original proposition is that the best job/wage security for pilots is to have a strong economy. The best way to have a strong economy is to vote republican. The last economic boom (and airline boom) was, what 1995-2000 (Congress mostly under republican control, and then died late 2000-2002 (Congress controlled mostly by democrats during this time).

Did you know:

1. The 100th US Congress served from 1987-1989, democrats controlled both the house and senate, with a republican president.

2. The 101st Congress served from 1989-1991, democrats controlled both the house and senate, with a republicn president.

3. The 102nd Congress served from 1991-1993, democrats controlled both the house and senate, with a republican president.

4. The 103rd Congress served from 1993-1995, democrats controlled both the house and senate, with a democratic president.

5. The 104th Congress served from 1995-1997, republicans controlled both the house and senate, with a democratic president.

6. The 105th Congress served from 1997-1999, republicans controlled both the house and senate, with a democratic president.

7. The 106th Congress served from 1999 to 2001, republicans controlled both the house and senate, with a democratic president.

8. The 107th Congress served from 2001-2003, republicans controlled the house and democrats controlled the senate, with a republican president.

and...

1. The last big airline down cycle was 1990-1995. It didn't matter who as president (Bush or Clinton). Democrats came into power the two years prior to the airline downturn, and were in power throughout the downturn.

2. Last big airline upturn was 1996-2000. Clinton was president, but republicans controlled the senate and the house starting in 1995, and held them until 2000.

3. This airline downturn started 4th quarter of 2000, and will continue into 2003...democrats have been in control of the senate for the last 18 months of this (107th) congressional session.

While these facts alone cannot show definitively that democratically controlled congresses led to airline downturns...it can be stated that democrats have presided through most of the last two airline downturns...and republicans presided just before and through the last airline upturn.

ALPA vs Non-ALPA

Where would you rather work?

SWA, non-ALPA

1. FOs top out at 92,000/year, Capts at 150,000 year

2. SWA has always posted an annual profit in its 30 years of exsitence.

3. To the best of my knowledge, SWA has never laid off a pilot

4. In 1991, SWA was the only airline to post a profit, while the rest of the industry lost 2,000,000,000.

5. 2001...SWA posted a profit, while all the other airlines combined lost close to 7,000,000,000.

6. SWA hired in 2002, and plans some hiring in 2003.

UAL, ALPA

1. 737 FO currently tops out at 130,000/yr 737 Capt tops out at 189,000/yr. Take away 18% (cause that's coming on 1 Dec), and you get 107,000/yr for top FO pay, and 155,000 for top Capt pay. These figures are from Air Incs' Salary Survey, -18%.

2. UAL lost 800,000,000 between 1991-1993. They took a concessionary contract in, I believe, 1994. UAL made money from 1994-2000 under the concessioanry contract...and started losing money again (by the hundreds of millions) right after the new UAL pilot contract of 10/2000.

3. UAL lost 2,100,000,000 in 2001. The first full year of their new, ALPA negotiated contract. UAL is expected to lose 1,800,000,000 in 2002...the second year of their new ALPA negotiated contract.

4. By Mar of 2003, UAL will have over 1500 pilots on the street, their pilots will take an 18% paycut, and they hove no prospect of profitiablilty (or hiring) until at least 2004, probably longer since they'll have to recall so many pilots before hiring.

...now what has ALPA done for pilot job/wage security in the last 10 years at UAL???????????????????????

I'll take a 10-15% a year less at non-ALPA SWA anyday, knowing that even in this severe airline downturn, SWA is hiring, has never furloughed, and has always posted a profit.

I'll say it again, as far as safety, medical, etc., ALPA has done great things for us.

However, when it comes to wage and benefits, it's just about the money...the money at the top end of the seniority list who's job security is not in really in jeopardy. The "ALPA brotherhood" stops at the pocketbook...ask any of the 5,000 or so ALPA brothers on the street at NWA, DAL, AMR, US Air, or UAL.

Then ask the same question of the SWA guys on the street...if you can find one.

 

[Rvrrat]

man, I spend way too much time on this bulleting board...

I'll be happy to get a few new target sheets printed up; you've shot the center right out of the current one.

It's been said that politics is the second oldest profession; it's beggining to be indistinguishable from the first.

Like investing, is the goal quick short term gains that may be monumental or, long term gains that may be somewhat less astounding but are significantly more stable.

It seems most people have forgotten the principals of being prudent; the foremost being to take no action or make no allegiance which would put one in a compromising position. For example: If I am prudent about my personal debt load, I will never find myself in a position that requires I continue to work for an employer who has become unethical. If I don't like what the company is doing I can walk away. I have the ability at any time to withdraw my services. In this way, I retain for myself the final word on a matter.

The ALPA has not earned my trust by their actions. In my view, they have squandered their historical benefits.

 

[B1900DFO]

Golden,
I think your figures are off on the Ual 737 capts. I could be wrong but I believe they start somewhere around 180/hr, not sure where they top out.

You keep blaming Alpa for the mismanagement of airlines. When it comes down to it the total cost of pilot salaries is just a fraction of the costs facing a full-service, major airline. However they are probably one of the easiest costs to reduce which is why management is always bitching about labor costs.

But don't take it from me. Here is a direct quote from Donald Carty, "The greatest sin of airline management of the last 22 years has been to say it's all labor's fault (august 12, 2002)." Now do you think ALPA made the CEO of AMR make that statement?

Go read Flying The Line and Flying the Line 11. Great history of management-pilot relations since the inception of the airline industry.

 

[goldentrout]

B1900DFO

You're are correct about the UAL 737 Capt/FO salaries. I will correct my post. I'm getting my figures from Air Incs stuff, and some of my profit info from "Flying Through Time."

As for what the AMR CEO said about not blaming, I agree with him 100%.

The management team that agreed to the employee overhead costs at the major airlines were irresponsible and incompetent in their duties...of which the primary duty is to ensure the profitibality and financially viability of the company in good and bad economic times.

The pilot group at SWA and their management team have had 30 years of profitability. While their compensation package may be only 80% of let's say, UAL...SWA has never furloughed, has always turned a profit, and (according to Flying Through Time, page 86, has morale that "may be the best in the airline industry." Don't forget, SWA profit sharing was 14.5% of their base salary for 1999...that's about 20,000 for top SWA Capts, and 13,000 for top FOs. That's about the same as their UAL counterparts after the 18% pay cut.

If they can do it SWA, they ought to be able to do it at the majors...ALPA and the management teams have no excuses...SWA is doing it, it can be done.

Yes, yes...I've heard that SWA and UAL offers a different product, that SWA is only domestic, that it doesn't have premium service, etc. These are still just excuses...either a company is financially viable, or it isn't . If a company's overhead doesn't allow it to make money on "premium service" and/or "international flying," then they either have to drop those services, or adjust their overhead to make a profit.

I have heard...and I do not present this as fact, only strong as corraborated rumor.

I have it on good authority that a certain number of pilots at UAL get paid $20,000-25,000/month at UAL to do nothing...that's right, they have the whole month off and get $20,000-25,000. They do this four months or so out of the year. That's 80,000-100,000/year per pilot for no work. So let's say 100 pilots at the top of the list can do this...that's 8-10 million/year 100 UAL pilots get paid to sit at home all month 4 times a year.

How does this work? After 25 yrs at UAL, a pilot gets 44 days/year of vacation. Many of the international senior Capts only fly 2 trips a month. Apparently, the current work rules say if you bid vacation, and one of your vacation days touches a trip, you are displaced from the trip without any loss of pay. So these pilots (and I probably would too, if I could) bid 10 days of vacation/month 4 times a year on lines where their vacation touches their trips and presto!...their trips for their four months disappear...and they get their full month's pay.

Additionally, there are probably hundreds, if not a thousand other pilots who use this work rule to only fly 1 to 2 trips a month 4-5 times a year, and still get their full salary. How many millions does UAL shell out every year to pilots who fly 0-2 trips a month, using this vacation work rule, to turn 7-10 days of vacation into 3 weeks to a month off?.

9/11 has given management the upperhand. With the advent of low cost carriers and 50-90 seat RJs, the airline industry is going to revolutionize itself in the next five years...and I'd bet a chunk of change the employee overhead costs will drop significantly in that revolution.

The AMR CEO was exactly right about not blaming labor...whatever major airline management team agreed to the employee overhead in the current contracts, and to work rules like the one above, deserves to be fired.

My opinion...ALPA will not be able to "preserve the profession" unless it becomes a force for a more revenue based compensation package, and for job security for all...not just the top of the list.

 

[B1900DFO]

Golden,
American pilots make significantly less (20%+) than Dal pilots yet the company is losing staggering amounts of money. American's management never agreed to the staggering pilot salaries you keep referencing, yet they are losing 800+ milion a quarter. Are pilot salaries still to blame for Amr's woes? I bet that AMR pilots are paid comparable wages to SWA pilots for similar equipment. Howeer I do give you that SWA pilots are more productive.

By the way if you have such disdain for the majors go to Luv. Then in 15-20 years when you are a captain at SWA saving heavily for retirement along will come XYZ airline whose pilots will be happy to top out at 100K after 18 years. The public will love them because they offer no-frills tickets for quite a bit cheaper than the now over-priced SWA. These XYZ pilots will scoff at those overpaid SWA guys who get more than 10 days off a month and such extravagant benefits as medical and dental insurance.

The USA Today will run articles claiming that SWAPA is crippling the once great SWA with outrageous labor costs that drive the tickets to astronomical prices, even exceeding the cost of driving in extreme cases. XYZ pilots will have quirky, company-guy attitudes and will happily book tickets from home on their days off to trim company costs. The pilots will even pay for their PC checks and soon SWA will be flat-out unable to compete. Even worse, legions of bright-eyed new pilots will look upon you with growing contempt because your outrageous SWA salary is limiting growth and denying their god-given right to a job at the majors. What i'm trying to say is that there is always someone who would be thrilled to do it for cheaper if the job involves flying an airplane. I think we should be the last ones to blame pilots for the state of the industry.

 

[goldentrout]

B1900

My comments do not say that "pilots" are too blame for all the airlines woes.

What my comments do say is that the wage and benefit strategy of ALPA "get as much as we can now and to heck with the financial future of the company...as well as the bottom 20% of the seniority list" hsa significantly contributed the the airlines woes.

According to CNN the other day...labor is 38% of the overhead of the airlines...flight attendant and mechanics' unions too are right in there with ALPA using the same failing strategy. AMR is not ALPA, but their union seems to have that same short sighted mentality, along with scope clauses that "protect" pilot jobs.

I looked up the AMR pay rates on the 737, AMR guys make about $30,000 more/year than at SWA (about $15,000 in salary, and another $15,000 on their B-fund). So yes, AMR management did agree to wages/benefits much higher than at SWA...and AMR management probably agreed to a flight attendant contract much higher than at SWA...and a mechanic contract much higher than at SWA...gate agents...baggage handlers..etc...it all adds up.

You and I can disagree in theory about all this but the facts are

1. Since 1990, SWA has made a profit every year.
2. AMR has only turned a profit 7 of those 12 years.
3. SWA has never furloughed a pilot.
4. Most, if not all of the majors furloughed thousands in 1990-1992, and then thousands more in 2001-2002.
5. SWA is hiring, buying planes and expanding, even in this horrible airline market.
6. The big 4 all over over 1000 pilots on furlough, more furloughs planned, and are losing billions a year.

and don't forget...the UAL MEC just agreed to a 2.2 billion wage cut over 5 years, and the flight attendants agreed to a 450 million 5 year wage reduction.

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JetBlue Profit Up, Shares Drop
Thursday November 7, 1:39 pm ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - JetBlue Airways (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News), the popular low-cost airline, said on Thursday its profit rose and passenger traffic more than doubled in the latest quarter, while most larger airlines reported huge losses.
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But shares of JetBlue dropped more than 7 percent on Thursday as investors worried about a spike in operating costs. The New York-based airline cited rising fuel prices, a buildup of operations at Long Beach airport in California and a spate of credit card fraud that it said is being addressed.

"We were up a little bit on our cost side. But there's nothing endemic about those costs," Chief Executive Officer David Neeleman said in an interview. He said JetBlue's costs in the fourth quarter should drop back to second-quarter levels.

JetBlue said its profit rose to $12.2 million, or 27 cents per share, in the third quarter, from $10.1 million, or 30 cents per share, a year earlier.

Earnings were in line with forecasts of analysts surveyed by Thomson First Call, who expected JetBlue to earn 25 cents to 32 cents per share, with a mean estimate of 28 cents.

The airline's shares were down 7.7 percent, or $3.15, at $37.65 early on Thursday afternoon. JetBlue's stock peaked at $55.15 on May 6 after its initial public offering this spring, but dropped below $30 in October after a lock-up on some of those shares expired.

PRICING POWER IN A WEAK MARKET

Most major U.S. airlines are facing dramatically depressed revenue, with ticket prices low and business travel weak. Neeleman said he had never seen such consistently low airfares across the sector.

While fares have stayed painfully low for most airlines, JetBlue has an advantage both in terms of costs and pricing across its markets, Neeleman said in a conference call.

"One thing that stands out about the airline business is how weak airfares are, that is not the case for JetBlue," said Jim Parker, an airline analyst at Raymond James. "People are paying up to fly JetBlue and it is still a low fare."

The eight largest U.S. airlines posted net losses totaling more than $2.5 billion in the third quarter. Of those eight, only low-cost carrier Southwest Airlines(NYSE:LUV - News) had a profit.

Other low-cost carriers also posted quarterly profits as did most regional airlines, which serve major airline partners by flying from small- to mid-size cities into hub airports.

"(JetBlue has) a superior product that they offer at low fares, and they are the lowest-cost producer in the industry along with Southwest," Parker said. He added that the airline's outlook for the fourth quarter was favorable."

Check it out at

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021107/airlines_jetblue_earns_5.html

 

[DarnNearaJet]

The only thing more pathetic than our president getting a hummer in the oval office is the fact that the Republican congress attempted to overthrow a democratically-elected president for lying about sex under oath.

Actually, I'm wrong, there is one thing more pathetic -- someone painting a picture of the entire Democratic political platform over the actions of one man.

Remember Iran-Contra?