ALPA political strategy

[goldentrout]

Got a letter from ALPA before the election urging me to vote for the democratic candidate in my state, because he would oppose legislation changing the current rules for collective bargaining.

While I think ALPA has done good things for our industry as far as safety, medical issues, and other pilot related stuff...their strategy for pay and benefits is just plain dumb.

The days of holding the airlines hostage for huge pay and benefit increases are gone forever. With the advent of 50, 70 and 90 seat RJs, and thousands of pilots willing to fly those aircraft for half of what the majors pay, the "good ole days" will now be just that...the good ole days.

A better strategy is to vote republican, so that we can get this war behind us, and cut peoples' and business' taxes so the economy will grow and rebound...this is the best way to get airline jobs back and secure.

A solid, strong economy is the best job security we can have.

The facts speak for themselves...all the collective bargaining and scope clauses created by ALPA have led to nothing more than persistent airline financial instability, and thousands of pilots on the street.

Opinions are always welcome...

 

[SelectZoneFive]

Other than that post being just short of bizarre, I think it should get a prize for being the most un-thought out thought of the day.

 

[goldentrout]

Select zone five

Please back up your apparent "superior knowledge" with facts.

I based my opinion on facts.

1. Major airline wage structures can no longer be supported by revenue, and the future does not look good that revenues will be increasing anytime soon.

2. The advent of the regional industry has given management a tool to do the same job as the major airlines, but at half the cost. You can bet your bottom dollar they will use it to the max extent possible...and they will find a way around scope clauses...just as they are now.

3. Thousands of major airline pilots are on the street. If there were one list or flow through agreements, many if not most of these pilots would still have jobs, albeit at lower pay rates for awhile...but they'd still have a job on the seniority list.

ALPA's bargaining policies has contributed to a situation where

1. There are thousands of major airline pilots on the street.

2. Regional airlines are growing and hiring dramatically, because they can provide the same product on many routes at half the cost. Don't expect this trend to decrease. And if you thing scope clauses will save the majors...think again. Management will find a way around them...just as they are with force and majeure and Freedom Air and Executive Air (being sold by American Eagle). ALPA never be able to get a contract that 100% traps management...again I say the best way to get pilot job securuty is to have a strong economy...not by some contract trickery which we think management is not smart enough to thwart.

3. US Air and United just took significant pay cuts, because their companies can no longer support their outrageous pay rates.


These are facts in evidence. These are well thought out arguments

Please support you opinion with facts...not just an arrogant statement totally unsupported "opinion."

Beat me with facts...not just your supposed "superior judgment," which means nothing to me until I can see what your mind can produce.

 

[larry]

airlines

Maybe somebody can fill me in, but I had the impression the the majors lost money due to price cuts in tickets because they all fly the same routes. Thus, after deregulation United, Delta, and American can all fly the New York to LA route, they all cut ticket prices to drive the others out and everybody looses money. I just didn't imagine that pilot salarys make that much of a difference in the bottom line. I would think maybe the RJs are cheaper to operate, but not just because the pilots are cheaper.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

A better strategy is to vote republican

I have yet to find a circumstance when it isn't a better strategy to vote Republican.

The country got a good taste of what Democrats are all about with their memorial service turned circus in Minnesota. That is a key factor in why so many Democrats were conceding defeat last night and this morning.

 

[SelectZoneFive]

Golden,

"I based my opinion on facts."

"These are facts in evidence."

That's a little bit of a streeetch don't you think?

More like "these are my opinions based on gross generalizations, and now I am going to present them as "facts"."

While having you go to all the energy of responding to my one-liners with manifesto's is lot's of fun, why don't we go play Aircraft recognition? I still cannot get some of those d@mned Russkie helo’s!

Ummm, (I know I'm going to regret this but):

Not to pick, but "force and majeure" is really "force majeure."
It's French! It means: An event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled.
How exactly did you work this into Scope? I thought it usually applied to furlough clauses?

"These are facts in evidence. These are well thought out arguments"

I don't think sooo.

But never mind, today is not a day to fence! Today is a day were we go and look up Russkie helo's!!!

I love sitting reserve.

 

[DaveGriffin]

With a GOP controlled House and Senate, the first and foremost challenge to ALPA right now is the highly probable passage of an Arbitration bill in 2003. Once that horse gets out of the barn the entire dynamic for ALPA is changed for a long time.

 

[snowback]

Cyclical, cyclical, cyclical.

 

[goldentrout]

Selectzonefive

Ok...I'm not necessarily up for an argument now either...but

my "gross generalizations" are facts. Again I state...if you disagree, please prove me wrong with facts...tell me why my gross generalizations are wrong.

1. As stated above, ticket prices. i.e. revenue are down...this revenue flow can no longer support the current salary levels. US Air took a big cut...United is next at an 18% cut...I imagine there's more to follow

2. If Delta had a flow through agreement or one list, few if any of their guys would be on the street...and those on the street would be the next to be hired. ASA and Comair have hired about 500 guys since 9/11, and will hire 500-600 more in 2003...that's about their whole furlough list.

3. Management is hiring at the regionals and furloughing at the majors...evidence that they are going to get the job done for half the cost...as I've previously stated.

I fail to see how these facts are gross generalizations...

By the way...I may have slipped an extra "and" in force majeure by accident, but...

La prochaine fois que vous allez critiquer mon grammaire français, soyez sur que la personne à qui vous vous addressez ne parle pas le français mieux que vous.

Thanks for the French grammaire lesson...when you're done translating this, get back to me and we'll have a great discussion of French grammar.

 

[SelectZoneFive]

Est-ce que vous êtes ivre?

 

[Singlecoil]

Remember, labor is not the biggest cost to airlines, and neither is fuel.
Bad management is the biggest cost to airlines, and it always will be.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Umm skews me guys....

Donde esta la biblioteque????

 

[Jetsnake]

It's been 2 years since President Bush
was elected. That's a Fact.

And as far I know ALEC BALDWIN is still
living in the United States. FACT.

And ALEC BALDWIN said he would move out
of the United States if Bush were elected.

"I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaiting!"

Jetsnake

 

[SelectZoneFive]

“Ok...I'm not necessarily up for an argument now either...but”

Ok, I agree. Wait, what am I thinking? I have several hours of reserve left!

”my "gross generalizations" are facts. Again I state...if you disagree, please prove me wrong with facts...tell me why my gross generalizations are wrong.”

Ok, but let’s spend some time going over your stuff first. Also, “my gross generalizations are facts.” Has to be the funniest thing you have said all day.

”1. As stated above, ticket prices. i.e. revenue are down...”

I will give you this one as being generally true. Industry wide. Based on each individual airlines financial reports and the DOT’s statements. How’s the overall RASM doing? You want to check that for us? Bring a little bit better measurement system into play.


“this revenue flow can no longer support the current salary levels.”

Is that a fact or is that just an opinion? In addition, for which specific airlines do you find this to be true? United? Probably, but we don’t know that for sure do we? Northwest? How about them, how are they doing? Continental? They are behind the industry leaders right now. Not my opinion you understand, I am basing that statement from CALALPA and CAL management’s press releases. They have announced they will be bargaining for a pay raise with improved work rules. Jet Blue?, AirTran?, Mesa? Are they going to be doing givebacks to? Your umbrella statement seems to say so.

“US Air took a big cut...United is next at an 18% cut...I imagine there's more to follow”

Well a “big” cut for is a subjective claim; they did take a cut though. You are guessing United will take a cut. A pretty good guess I would say! Nevertheless, not a fact, yet.


"2. If Delta had a flow through agreement or one list, few if any of their guys would be on the street...and those on the street would be the next to be hired."

Is this is a fact? Sounds like someone has been playing the guessing game again. You have no idea how any as of yet un-bargained agreement’s would work over there. There are what, two flow-thru’s out there? I do not know much about Eagle’s, but over at Continental and Continental Express, I hear they have both mainline and Express people on the street. So state a couple of facts, there are 383 CALEX pilots and 440 CAL pilots who are on furlough or leave. During the flow-down part, the seniority list was integrated and both Express people and mainline people on the bottom of the list were furloughed. Referring to the last part of your claim: Where would these Delta people be hired next? They are currently furloughed from Delta, and awaiting recall. Or, is this another supposition, based on your as un-yet bargained flow-through agreement? In addition, if it were not, where would they be hired next? Are you indicating they would have some kind of preferential standing in the industry?

ASA and Comair have hired about 500 guys since 9/11, and will hire 500-600 more in 2003...that's about their whole furlough list.

Who’s? Delta’s? From the Delta code-a-phone: “Today, Delta announced its intention to furlough an additional 22 pilots on December 1. As you know, 75 pilots will be furloughed on November 1. This will bring the total number of furloughed to 1,015 effective December 1” So a “fact” would be that as of November 1st, there are 950 furloughed Delta pilots. You see a fact could be defined as “a thing done.” Not: “I think I’ll make some stuff up today and call them facts.” Also, you have no idea what Comair or ASA’s hiring numbers will be next year. At best, you are basing that on their individual management’s estimates for next year.


"3. Management is hiring at the regionals and furloughing at the majors...evidence that they are going to get the job done for half the cost...as I've previously stated."


Some properties are hiring and some properties have furloughs. Also, some properties are stagnant as far as movement.

That is “evidence that they are going to get the job done for half the cost”? Let’s keep you from getting jury duty! Which job are you referring to?


"I fail to see how these facts are gross generalizations..."

I know you don’t, why do you think I am pointing out that your claims and statements are not facts. They are mostly opinions and generalizations.

Of course, this could be said to just be my opinion! Which I think you said were welcome.

 

[SelectZoneFive]

Just to kill time...

Well now,

I am going to assume that our beloved goldentrout, is at this very moment, furiously typing out his latest manifesto in the florid brilliant style that he is justly famed for. A style that could only be described by the word “bravura!”

So, in the meantime I have provided us with a momentary distraction. Yes people, it is SZF’s Guide to Arguing!

Enjoy, GT we wait, with baited breath….




A guide to arguing:

* Drink Liquor

Suppose you're at a party and some hotshot intellectual is expounding on the
economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing about. If you're drinking some
health fanatic drink like grapefruit juice, you'll hang back, afraid to
display your ignorance, while the hotshot enthralls your date. But if you
drink several large shots of Jack Daniels, you'll discover you have STRONG
VIEWS about the Peruvian economy. You'll be a WEALTH of information. You'll
argue forcefully, offering searing insights and possibly upsetting furniture.
People will be impressed. Some may leave the room.

* Make Things Up

Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to prove Peruvians
are underpaid, a position you base solely on the fact YOU are underpaid, and
you're d@mned if you're going to let a bunch of Peruvians be better off.
DON'T say: "I think Peruvians are underpaid." Say: "The average Peruvian's
salary in 1981 dollars adjusted for the revised tax base is $1,452.81 per
annum, which is $836.07 below the mean gross poverty level."
(NOTE: always make up exact figures.) If an opponent asks where you got
your information, make THAT up too. Say: "This information comes from Dr.
Hovel T. Moon's study for the Buford Commission published May 9, 1982.
Didn't you read it?" Say this in the same tone of voice you would use to
say "You left your soiled underwear in my bath house".

* Use Meaningless But Weighty-sounding Words and Phrases

Memorize this list:
Let me put it this way
In terms of
Vis-a-vis (Little thingy ` over the-a-)
per se
As it were
qua
so to speak

You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as q.e.d., e.g., and
i.e. These are all short for "I speak Latin and you do not". Here's how to
use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say: "Peruvians would like
to order appetizers more often, but they don't have enough money." You never
win arguments talking like that. But you WILL if you say: "Let me put it
this way. In terms of appetizers vis-a-vis Peruvians, they would like to
order them more often, so to speak, but they do not have enough money per se,
as it were. Q.E.D." Only a fool would challenge that statement.

* Use Snappy and Irrelevant Comebacks

You need an arsenal of all purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at your
opponents when they make valid points.

The best are:
You're begging the question
You're being defensive
Don't compare apples and oranges
What are your parameters?

This last one is especially valuable. Nobody, other than mathematicians, has
the vaguest idea what "parameters" means.

Here's how to use your comebacks:

You say: Liberians, like most Asians....
Your opponent says: Liberia is in Africa.
You say: You're being defensive.

* Compare Your Opponent to Adolf Hitler

This is your heavy artillery, for when your opponent is obviously right and
you are spectacularly wrong. Bring up Hitler subtly. Say: "That sounds
suspiciously like something Adolf Hitler might say" or "You certainly do
remind me of Hitler".

You know now how to out-argue anybody. Do not try to pull any of this on
people who generally carry weapons.


I hope you find this helpful. I await any reports of the use of this guide.

 

[goldentrout]

Selectzonefive

First of all...if you don't want to discuss things on this board...why do you waste your time here? Your sarcasm may show your wit, but not your intelligence.

Second of all...I've flown with many pilots like you...sarcastic "know-it alls". I tried to start a discussion. your condescending reply started the sarcasm...I fault myself for stooping to even reply to that...you baited me and you won.

As for making stuff up, point out any thing you think I fabricated, and I will give you a reference document for every fact I've stated.

1. ”1. As stated above, ticket prices. i.e. revenue are down...”

United is going to take an 18% paycut. That's a fact...ask the guys at United, it's on their ALPA website. As far as RASM...it doesn't matter if you fill up every darn plane on every darn flight...if you can't generate enough revenue to pay the bills, then it doesn't matter how many RASMs you fly. Now THIS IS just conjecture on my part, but I can't imagine CALALPA getting some big raise...they may say that's what their going to ask for (because all unions want more pay and benefits, even if might financially cripple the company).

I don't consider AirTran, Jet Blue, Southwest to be major airlines...guess what...those guys are making money or at least paying the bills. Why? Because their overhead expenses do not exceed their revenue.

Delta lost $326,000,000 last quarter. That's more than 3.5 million dollars a day. American lost $495,000,000 in the 2nd quarter of 2002. That's 5.5 million dollars a day. If you think management is not going to let theirregional airlines do this job at half the price, you need to get an MBA...and so does Duane Woerth.

2. The 1000 or so guys on furlough at Delta were all hired before 9/11. Whether it would be one list or a flow back, they would be senior to the 500 or so guys that Comair/ASA has hired since 9/11, and the 500 or so more guys Comair/ASA will hire in 2003. The FACT is this is what they're projecting to hire. IBoth ASA and Comair will meet this year's hiring projections...and with a bounch of planes on firm order, there's little doubt they won't meet next year's projections too. If I were an ALPA member on the street...I'd rather be in that hiring line, rather than waiting for ALPA to pull some magic trick out of their hat to get me a job. I have friends at CAL and American, most of them that have flowed back KEPT their jobs based on their seniority. The guys JUNIOR to them at Eagle and CALEX are on the street.

3. Management is hiring at the regionals and furloughing at the majors...evidence that they are going to get the job done for half the cost...as I've previously stated."

You said: Some properties are hiring and some properties have furloughs. Also, some properties are stagnant as far as movement.

I may have generalized a little here, but let's look at the big picture. ACA/US Air Express/Comair/ASA/Freedom Air are all hiring...Delta, Northwest, American, United are all furloughing. The point is that you can fly 2 50/70 seat RJs from Atlanta to Orlando for the about same price as 1 737, and offer the customer twice the choice.

It's happening all around at almost every major airline...737/Mad dogs out...RJs in. I know for a fact that Delta and American have converted numerous mainline stations to regional only stations. This is the trend and it will continue. How do I know? Because Delta just put off all their Boeing aircraft orders for 2003 and 2004, and they are going to buy 50 or so RJs in 2003. Same for US Air...no big aircraft orders, but a couple hundred RJs on order.

I asked for opinions...you're right. I didn't ask for condescending sarcasm.

After 9/11, I made these same argumets to many major airline guys on this very board. I got the same sarcastic, condescending replies...you don't know what you're talking about...it's all management's fault...we won't let "them" (management) get away with it...scope will protect us...over my dead body will I gave up a dime!

Now it's all coming true...which was my original point that ALPA's strategy has failed it's members...unless you're at the top of the list..."preserving the profession." That's one you should add to your * Use Snappy and Irrelevant Comebacks list."

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

GT, I think I understand what you're trying to say regarding one political party seems to (on the surface anyway) promote more business while the other gives the impression it is pro labor.
Personally I am confused about the whole thing. The Republicans taunt they're for business and for individual rights. Yet more and more businesses are leaving the country (for shareholder value of course!) and Bush/Ashcroft seem to be want more government control all in the name of safety. On the other hand, the Dems - claiming they're for labor - want to tax the tar out of anyone making middle class wages on up. In addition, they want to regulate businesses more and more. Add a good mix of trial lawyers and it is no wonder businesses want to leave.
Guess the question (may not be the right question) is do businesses leave because of the desire to make more money or do they leave because it has become such a pain to do business in this country?
I agree the airline business thrives as American business thrives. While a company like Lee jeans has 750 jobs leaving Lebennon (sp?), MO may not seem to be a big deal, add dozens of other companies doing the same thing and it adds up real fast. Would think this has to have an overall negative impact on the airline biz. If America is not careful there won't be the abundance of folks to buy those $60 carefully crafted in China college sweatshirts because we'll all be unemployed (or working for the government!). Can only hope the government and business realize this and want to turn the tide.

 

[Jetsnake]

What a shame if the GOP does something good
for our country besides smoog on some fat girl's
dress.

 

[goldentrout]

"Bush/Ashcroft seem to be want more government control all in the name of safety."

I don't understand what you mean by this?

But in answer to your question about why business is leaving the country, the answer is simple economics...between government red tape and taxes, doing business in America is just too expensive.

As an example...and maybe most people know this, but I didn't until I got out of the military...businesses have to pay an unemployment tax for each employee...so when you fire them for poor performance or lay them off because you can't afford them anymore...the government takes that tax money and pays the fired/laid off worker unemployment. That's unbelievable! Businesses have to pay a tax to finance unemployment payments to people who they fire for poor performance or slow economic times. If I'm a business owner, and I can find a place where I don't have to pay such a ridiculous tax, you better believe I'm moving my business there in a heart beat!

If the US government wants to keep my business, and my tax dollars, then they need to provide a competitive business climate in relation to other countries who want me to come there to bring jobs and tax revenue.

Of course they also leave because labor is cheaper elsewhere. I would be interested to see how many unions have priced themselves right out of jobs. They demand outrageous pay and benefits...the company is held hostage because they can't afford a strike...so they give in to the union demands...the union leaders and workers have a big champagne party...and then six months later their jobs are outsourced out of the country.

This is just basic economics. Businesses will always seek the lowest bidder who can provide the desired level of service/labor at the lowest price.

That's ALPA's problem...they somehow think they are going to be able to "preserve the profession" by scope and other such trickery, which are in direct opposition to the above economic principle.

Ask anyone with an MBA, and I'm sure they'll back me 100% (although some MBA on this board will probably refute me just out of spite).

 

[eaglefly]

Fact ! - If it smells like trout, GET OUT !

This thread is about one individual apparently suffering from delusions of grandeur and wallowing in his own fish-laden sphincter gas.

Gotta a be a current or hopeful Freedom pilot.