ALPA on Emirates and Etihad

[General Lee]

The reaction to the Gulf carriers (I would include TK)is the same shouting that happened with the other two game changers in aviation - RJs & LCCs

The major pilots pizzed & moaned about how the LCCs were stealing jobs, PFT, letting the profession down etc...and now look at the dominant position of SWA and the impact if LCCs

Then they said the same about RJs...now the RJs do over 50% of domestic US flights.

The brute force of the market can be slowed but not turned.

BA(QR), AC(EY) & QF(EK) realized it and made their move by making a deal - some more ltd than QF.EK but nonetheless important and the first step to the realignment of global aviation.

The first US carrier to do a Qantas type deal with EK will win this fight...it WILL happen and I have no doubt that in the boardrooms of the US majors (incl SWA as easyJet just signed a deal with EK) the discussions are ongoing.

India, PAK, BANGLADESH & SLanka alone is 1.8bn that will be one stop to any major city in the US to the first mover in this new world order.

Actually DAL would be a perfect fit...don't think it's not been discussed. The spoils will go to the first mover.

fv

Fortunately the Union has to approve JVs, and the union seems against the OBVIOUS lack of fairness.

TK, or Turk, is actually an airline the Gulf carriers and the European carriers have to worry about. They are not restricted to a certain number of cities in Europe and Canada, like the Gulf carriers are. They have also ordered a bunch of planes, but mainly narrowbodies, and their connections out of IST are far superior to DXB, DOH, or AUH. They fly to far more countries, and have a true hub in IST, right in the middle of Europe and Asia. I have a feeling the GULF carriers are watching, and Lufthansa is rumored to be thinking about a possible merger. That would be a big smack to the Gulf.

As far as a US carrier doing a QF move, again the unions have more control than the flailing QF pilots did. They were in constant strife with their management, had large financial problems at the time of deciding that JV, and probably regret it now. The American legacies know your threat, and so far only a code share from JetBlue is all you have managed. The Gulf is too far from the US to inflict major damage. Yes, connecting pax to India and Pakistan are affected, but more nonstops (like UAL doing daily EWR to DEL and BOM) may cause business people to think twice about that DXB transit.

Also, those JVs or codeshares you mentioned are all different. QF and EK really are "sharing" planes and coordinating schedules. QF just gave up, giving up FRA and almost all of Europe to EK (except Austria who won't allow it there). EY and AC are just a simple code share, through LHR. Canada still won't allow more than 3 nonstops a week by a Gulf Carrier. And BA still hasn't changed its schedule with QR. They still fly the same daily 777 to DOH, and QR still flies 5 daily flights to LHR, and a couple to MAN. There are limited codesharing available to a few cities around each hub, but BA still flies nonstop from LHR to BOM, DEL, Colombo, Chennai, and Bengaluru. QR needs help with feed to Dublin, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Belfast. Not a big deal like the QF total capitulation of Europe.

So, I think you may be HOPING things will happen, when in reality people are starting to figure out what is happening. That's awesome you can order 180 A380s and 275 777s. How can you afford that again? Riiiight.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

That is one reason for consolidation, get bigger to be able to compete more on the World scale.

I agree, but I wonder if the horse is not only out of the barn, but out of the county by now. The US carriers seem to only now be doing that which should have been done 10-15 years ago.

 

[Freight Dog]

Getting a little personal, aren't we General? Stay on point...

Emirates is charging a premium for their product. Should they lower their price to match that of Delta's in the interest of being 'fair?' Let's face it... we don't have any visionary leadership in the US airlines. We have bean counters supported by junior bean counters partly enabled by the pilot subsidies (giving up paycuts, pensions, enabling them to turn pilot profession into a virtual minimum wage job, etc.) and we still have a dogsh*t product while the bean counter compensations have in turn skyrocketed. Who's the stupid one here?!

The reason why I pay more to travel on Emirates is the same reason why I have a factory-unlocked iPhone 5 as opposed to some low rent Nokia. Same reason why I have an iMac and MacBook Pro as opposed to some Widows-powered Dell POS.

Quality matters. Value matters. Clearly, our definitions of both seem to vary significantly.

 

[flyboyike]

Getting a little personal, aren't we General? Stay on point...

Emirates is charging a premium for their product. Should they lower their price to match that of Delta's in the interest of being 'fair?' Let's face it... we don't have any visionary leadership in the US airlines. We have bean counters supported by junior bean counters partly enabled by the pilot subsidies (giving up paycuts, pensions, enabling them to turn pilot profession into a virtual minimum wage job, etc.) and we still have a dogsh*t product while the bean counter compensations have in turn skyrocketed. Who's the stupid one here?!

The reason why I pay more to travel on Emirates is the same reason why I have a factory-unlocked iPhone 5 as opposed to some low rent Nokia. Same reason why I have an iMac and MacBook Pro as opposed to some Widows-powered Dell POS.

Quality matters. Value matters. Clearly, our definitions of both seem to vary significantly.

I agree with you on that last point. It seems to me the US airline business model has been that customers care only about saving a buck, and maybe to a certain extent that has worked. It also seems to me that customer attitudes are starting to change, especially those of the premium customers, who are getting sick of being treated only slightly better than like steerage. In other words, the same people the General expects to continue to tolerate a crappy product, because of "loyalty" may not be willing to tolerate it much longer, especially since that loyalty will only get those customers more of the same crappy product. EK et al are aware of this, and are starting to poach those very premium customers and with them a few mere mortals here and there as well.

Just like Toyota and Honda did with their little cars back in the day. Truly we don't learn from our mistakes....

 

[General Lee]

I agree with you on that last point. It seems to me the US airline business model has been that customers care only about saving a buck, and maybe to a certain extent that has worked. It also seems to me that customer attitudes are starting to change, especially those of the premium customers, who are getting sick of being treated only slightly better than like steerage. In other words, the same people the General expects to continue to tolerate a crappy product, because of "loyalty" may not be willing to tolerate it much longer, especially since that loyalty will only get those customers more of the same crappy product. EK et al are aware of this, and are starting to poach those very premium customers and with them a few mere mortals here and there as well. Y

Just like Toyota and Honda did with their little cars back in the day. Truly we don't learn from our mistakes....

I disagree that the US legacies aren't trying to improve. I see my airline revamping interiors (lie flat seats), menus, terminal buildings, etc. And a lot of money has been used for those new items. Some things are harder to change right away, but they ARE changing. Anti discrimination laws may not benefit airlines, but anti PDA laws in the ME aren't great either. Change is coming, even if it is a bit late, but not too late. The Gulf carriers are already facing political headwinds from certain countries, and that may grow. But, you can't base everything on that assumption, but a Gulf carrier adding 180 A380s and 275 777s traversing your skies will not be hard to spot, and hurting national airlines won't be a good move politically. Also, making your product BETTER at the same time is bound to help, and it is happening.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Getting a little personal, aren't we General? Stay on point...

Emirates is charging a premium for their product. Should they lower their price to match that of Delta's in the interest of being 'fair?' Let's face it... we don't have any visionary leadership in the US airlines. We have bean counters supported by junior bean counters partly enabled by the pilot subsidies (giving up paycuts, pensions, enabling them to turn pilot profession into a virtual minimum wage job, etc.) and we still have a dogsh*t product while the bean counter compensations have in turn skyrocketed. Who's the stupid one here?!

The reason why I pay more to travel on Emirates is the same reason why I have a factory-unlocked iPhone 5 as opposed to some low rent Nokia. Same reason why I have an iMac and MacBook Pro as opposed to some Widows-powered Dell POS.

Quality matters. Value matters. Clearly, our definitions of both seem to vary significantly.

Freight,

You had me with your first two paragraphs....well said, but you went off the rails with your cell phone/computer rant.

 

[Freight Dog]

Thank you Bill, but the phone/computer comparison was a direct answer to this...

Oh wait, you must be super rich now, you can afford several hundred dollars more to oogle at the younger FAs. Good for you and your wife! (Is she gawking at the young male FAs? Are you? There's nothing w
rong with that, btw)




Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

got it....

 

[flyboyike]

I disagree that the US legacies aren't trying to improve. I see my airline revamping interiors (lie flat seats), menus, terminal buildings, etc.

I didn't say they weren't trying, it's the result that's so far not terribly impressive. The issue, I think, isn't even the tangible things like what you mention, it's the attitude. To a US carrier the customer is some necessary evil they're stuck dealing with, while to EK et al the customer is something to live for. At least, they successfully manage to act like it.

 

[General Lee]

I didn't say they weren't trying, it's the result that's so far not terribly impressive. The issue, I think, isn't even the tangible things like what you mention, it's the attitude. To a US carrier the customer is some necessary evil they're stuck dealing with, while to EK et al the customer is something to live for. At least, they successfully manage to act like it.

I see it first hand. Usually 1/3 of the flight I am back in the rest seat and I have seen improvements, in attitude and product. But, you can't just change anti discrimination laws overnight. Also, not "acting" a certain way might have dire consequences for employee groups out there, and I doubt most are married with kids. That might not be a bad thing, but external forces controlling your life literally (they house you and provide transport) may seem a bit overwhelming. Does that make a person happy? I don't think so. I think you should go over there and try it. A guy on PPRUNE (a Brit expat) is trying to get back to Britian on one of the Virgin hold pool threads. He just can't take it anymore, and is willing to take any airline in fact. I don't hear that a lot from US legacy pilots about their situations normally.(other than Seniority list integration arguments during certain mergers)


Bye Bye---General Lee