ALPA chest thumpers

[JoeMerchant]

Whats the game plan? You going to have them adopt your contract?

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another......

 

[DX Rick]

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another......

This is why ALPA need to come up with one pay scale for all pilots, split up in differenct equipment, straight across the board.

But that would make sense.
Thats how the RailRoads are, and thats a SOLID union

 

[PCL_128]

That's not what the petition says. Here it is. Don't blindly follow ALPA legal.... As Reagan said, "trust but verify"...

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2003/30n040.pdf

The front page says "FINDINGS UPON INVESTIGATION - DISMISSAL". If you go on to read it, it says this was because they already achieved single carrier through their contract negotiations. Ask ALPA legal about that....



Read the filing above. That is exactly what Mesa did with Freedom. I'm afraid your getting bad advice from ALPA....

John, I don't really have time to read the whole decision, but I believe I've found the disparity (again, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be way off). From the report's conclusion (emphasis is mine):

CONCLUSION​

The Board finds that for representation purposes under the RLA, Freedom is part of the existing MAG single transportation system composed of the MAG subsidiaries, Mesa, Air Midwest, and CCAir, for the Flight Deck Crew Members craft or class. Therefore, ALPA’s application in File No. CR-6771 is converted to NMB Case No. R-6939 and dismissed. ALPA’s certification at Mesa, Air Midwest, and CCAir covers the Freedom Air Flight Deck Crew Members.​

It would seem to me that the difference is the fact that Freedom was created by Mesa when ALPA was already the legal bargaining agent of Mesa/CCAir/Air Midwest pilots. In the cases of PCL/CJC and ASA/SKW, the airlines were involved in purchases. The airlines weren't built from scratch by the parent airline. It would seem that the NMB was finding that the Freedom Air pilots were always supposed to be ALPA pilots from the beginning because they were part of a single transportation system from their inception. The pilots at CJC and SKW were part of a pre-existing airline without union representation. Hence, you can't force them into a union shop.​

Again, that's just the interpretation of a non-lawyer. I'd have to ask Bruce York or one of the other ALPA attorneys for a true legal analysis.​

 

[PCL_128]

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another......

John, if you would have paid attention at the Leadership Conference, you would know that the SKW and CJC pilots would pay less into ALPA than they would receive, just like every other regional airline. Getting these two pilot groups into ALPA would actually mean that ALPA would be losing money year after year.

 

[Occam's Razor]

This is why ALPA need to come up with one pay scale for all pilots, split up in differenct equipment, straight across the board.

Wrong book!

We decided to use Adam Smith's book instead of Karl Marx's book

But that would make sense.
Thats how the RailRoads are, and thats a SOLID union

Ha! Then 'splain why an engineer at TC&W makes less than a BN engineer with the same longevity?

I can get you an application if you're interested!

In 1978, the decision was made to de-regulate the industry. The genie is out of the bottle. The only way to get that rascal back inside and rivet the cap is to get 100% of all of us driving airplanes to agree to do it.

Give me your views on Age 60 and I'll let the 200 responses you get serve as an illustration why that ain't happening, comrade!

 

[DX Rick]

Give me your views on Age 60 and I'll let the 200 responses you get serve as an illustration why that ain't happening, comrade!

Age 60 wouldn't be a factor if the airlines didn't abuse the BK laws, and rip pensions out from everyone else.

I think as pilots, we should be able to take our managements contracts and pensions to a judge and have them all thrown out as well.
But I'm a little psychotic.

 

[PCL_128]

But I'm a little psychotic.

Well, we finally agree on something.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Age 60 wouldn't be a factor if the airlines didn't abuse the BK laws, and rip pensions out from everyone else.

You learn quickly, grasshopper!

The line up of weasels that don't want you to have ANY control over your pay, benefits, schedule, and pension is impressive:

Government
Management
Banks
Courts

I think as pilots, we should be able to take our managements contracts and pensions to a judge and have them all thrown out as well.

That's crazy talk! We're Labor! The "good guys" get to make the rules, and the courts follow the rules. The credit card companies wanted tighter Chapter 13 rules to keep people from writing-off debt via bankruptcy.

So they got the rules changed.

We'd like to change the Railway Labor Act and Chapter 11 rules for airlines too.

Where was THAT issue when we went to the polls in November, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006?

But I'm a little psychotic.

Hardly. You just want a system that's fair at least some of the time!

Me too.

That doesn't make us psychotic. Doesn't make us enemies or contrarians either. We only differ on what role ALPA plays in helping us change the rules to make the system more fair.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think we all agree that management sucks. That being said...

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another...
Can you feel the solidarity yet? I think I do! Wait...wait... *burp* ... sorry, just a little gas

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Are you going to attribute the success of their contract to ALPA? Or the fact that they operate under a different business model than the Airlines? Because UPS got a pretty smoking contract too...but they're not ALPA. And NetJets, pretty smoking contract under the Teamsters, but again, different business model.

Well, let's see... Since the February 2007 issue of Aviation International News(page 67) states that "Skywest Airlines turned the biggest profit margins in the entire airline industry during the third quarter, 12.3%", and then comparing the 0 or 1%(for 101/2 years) we got compared to FedEX pilots.... YES!!!!! I'd attribute the success to ALPA!

 

[CopilotDoug]

Well, let's see... Since the February 2007 issue of Aviation International News(page 67) states that "Skywest Airlines turned the biggest profit margins in the entire airline industry during the third quarter, 12.3%", and then comparing the 0 or 1%(for 101/2 years) we got compared to FedEX pilots.... YES!!!!! I'd attribute the success to ALPA!

Wait dude...you're losing me here...what do you mean by "and then comparing the 0 or 1%(for 101/2 years) we got compared to FedEX pilots" ???

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Wait dude...you're losing me here...what do you mean by "and then comparing the 0 or 1%(for 101/2 years) we got compared to FedEX pilots" ???

I mean after quarter after quarter and year after year of huge profits here at Skyw, our SAPA(non ALPA) reps only managed to "negotiate"(if you want to call it that) a raise of 0% for Emb pilots, and a whopping 1% for the rest...This was after 61/2 years of no COLA, and we're locked in for another 4 years! Does less than .1% a year(or nothing) seem like SAPA did anywhere near as well as ALPA did for FedEx?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I mean after quarter after quarter and year after year of huge profits here at Skyw, our SAPA(non ALPA) reps only managed to "negotiate"(if you want to call it that) a raise of 0% for Emb pilots, and a whopping 1% for the rest...This was after 61/2 years of no COLA, and we're locked in for another 4 years! Does less than .1% a year(or nothing) seem like SAPA did anywhere near as well as ALPA???

This is two different arguments here...

My point was that you cannot compare Big Cargo (UPS and FedEx) to Airlines or Fractionals. All three operate on different business models. And the Teamsters have shown that you don't need to be ALPA to get a good contract*under favorable conditions.

But getting back to your point, what in particular will ALPA bring to the table which will allow them to squeeze management's nuts and get more than SAPA?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

This is two different arguments here...

My point was that you cannot compare Big Cargo (UPS and FedEx) to Airlines or Fractionals. All three operate on different business models. And the Teamsters have shown that you don't need to be ALPA to get a good contract*under favorable conditions.

But getting back to your point, what in particular will ALPA bring to the table which will allow them to squeeze management's nuts and get more than SAPA?

Well, for one, I was trying to point out in a nice way SAPA can't really negotiate for us...They take whatever management offers and present it to us, that's not really negotiating in my book!

 

[DX Rick]

Well, for one, I was trying to point out in a nice way SAPA can't really negotiate for us...They take whatever management offers and present it to us, that's not really negotiating in my book!

That isn't because it's SAPA's fault. It's because it's the guys on the boards fault.
Kind of remind of a little ole regional airline called......MESA!!!
Andy Hughes always said "This is the best we can get" then packed his bags for a weekend cruise/ski trip with JO

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Copilotdoug and DX Rick....

Part of the art of complaining is to offer solutions.... single seniority lists, single payrates and a national SOS sound great..but no one has come up with workable ways to do it...

The issue is you complain about ALPA ineffectiveness but you offer to methodologies to change that for the better...

ALPA isn't the great organization.... but it is all we got. I am willing to what I can to make it better... regardless of the flaws etc....

 

[DX Rick]

ALPA isn't the great organization.... but it is all we got. I am willing to what I can to make it better... regardless of the flaws etc....

I agree. So where would one go to become involved with the Union? I would look on the ALPA website, but they STILL haven't gotten me my password. Even after I called. They said they would email it to me....nadda.

I'm not going to sit here and complain without getting involved. So thats why I want to get involved, THEN complain

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Quote from co-pilot Doug-But getting back to your point, what in particular will ALPA bring to the table which will allow them to squeeze management's nuts and get more than SAPA?

Doug nothing SAPA has presented us in the last couple of pay votes included any QOL wording. SAPA tries to get pay but if BH gets mad at them he can walk away from the table until he sees fit to return. I don't blame the SAPA guys. It's just kinda like goin bear huntin with a sling shot.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The issue is you complain about ALPA ineffectiveness but you offer to methodologies to change that for the better...

Rez, I don't know if it can be changed. I agree that we need something, but I think that ALPA needs to re-think its strategy. How can ALPA, which represents two regionals, allow one to be undercut and lose flying to the other? What is ALPA doing to solidify its different regionals to avoid this situation? ALPA has potential, and they have tools. Do they need to strike if they don't get their way? Not necessarily, but they can do a slow down. What I keep hearing is "You gotta play by the rules" Isn't that the impetus which helped form ALPA? The rules didn't favor the pilot?

ALPA has resources at its disposal which it doesn't want to use. It involves taking risks, maybe doing a slow down or having a strike...but until ALPA gets the pilot groups together to act as one, Management will be able to divide and conquer at will.

Where's the help from the majors? They're involved more than they know it because when furloughs are handed out, alot of those guys are taking jobs at Regionals which they couldn't give to $hits about while they were flying for Mainline. Why don't they build something into their contract to the effect of: Any airline performing regional duties for Delta will agree not to fly these aircraft lower than these rates?

Yeah, it's one from left field, but it's thinking out of the box. Has this idea been suggested before?

 

[DX Rick]

Rez, I don't know if it can be changed. I agree that we need something, but I think that ALPA needs to re-think its strategy. How can ALPA, which represents two regionals, allow one to be undercut and lose flying to the other? What is ALPA doing to solidify its different regionals to avoid this situation? ALPA has potential, and they have tools. Do they need to strike if they don't get their way? Not necessarily, but they can do a slow down. What I keep hearing is "You gotta play by the rules" Isn't that the impetus which helped form ALPA? The rules didn't favor the pilot?

ALPA has resources at its disposal which it doesn't want to use. It involves taking risks, maybe doing a slow down or having a strike...but until ALPA gets the pilot groups together to act as one, Management will be able to divide and conquer at will.

Where's the help from the majors? They're involved more than they know it because when furloughs are handed out, alot of those guys are taking jobs at Regionals which they couldn't give to $hits about while they were flying for Mainline. Why don't they build something into their contract to the effect of: Any airline performing regional duties for Delta will agree not to fly these aircraft lower than these rates?

Yeah, it's one from left field, but it's thinking out of the box. Has this idea been suggested before?

What I have seen is that the guys are pro-union, they just arent completely in love with ALPA local or National right now.
We all know what the problems are within the Union, but between local and national.....no one seems to know how to fix the problem.