ALPA chest thumpers

[ohplease!]

Rez, I hate to point this out, but you are just as myopic by chanting the ALPA rep party line. You are beating the ALPA drum because it is what's expected of you. Try to step outside the box and look at the whole issue.

ICAO and the DOT have much more to do with foreign ownership and outsourcing than ALPA ever will. Just like age 65, ALPA will be consulted only after the decision has been made.

Alter ego is truly a bigger and more immediate problem facing our industry, and it's something well within ALPA's control. Compass, Mid Atlantic, and possibly a new entry from Delta are just the beginning. You also have independent MECs (like Mesa) fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie. All of this is causing an immediate threat to ALPA members at "Small Jet" carriers. Meanwhile, mainline MEC members and reps are ordering 100 dollar bottles of wine at ALPA paid dinners and toasting their success in "Takin' it Back" with the new president.

When will we get to "take it back"? Seems to me like the only taking it back is going to be the flying we currently do going back to mainline.

Until ALPA wakes up and treats all members fairly, with equal representation at the Executive Council level, it will always be a caste system. This is what's wrong with our union.

And I'm not an RJDC supporter, so you can't dismiss my argument by labeling me with that one.

see. I've told you in the past that you and I agree on more than you would ever believe. There is hope for you yet...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I hate to point this out, but you are just as myopic by chanting the ALPA rep party line. You are beating the ALPA drum because it is what's expected of you. Try to step outside the box and look at the whole issue.

I am myopic because I challenge the membership to get educated, attend LEC meetings, vote. Basically become activist....

ICAO and the DOT have much more to do with foreign ownership and outsourcing than ALPA ever will. Just like age 65, ALPA will be consulted only after the decision has been made.

Not true. Sure ALPA is not a major player. Do you expect them to be and if so why?

Alter ego is truly a bigger and more immediate problem facing our industry, and it's something well within ALPA's control. Compass, Mid Atlantic, and possibly a new entry from Delta are just the beginning. You also have independent MECs (like Mesa) fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie. All of this is causing an immediate threat to ALPA members at "Small Jet" carriers. Meanwhile, mainline MEC members and reps are ordering 100 dollar bottles of wine at ALPA paid dinners and toasting their success in "Takin' it Back" with the new president.

So lets work the ISSUE! I am not saying we can work on your scope deal. But if you want to focus on dinner menu's then it will take a much longer time.

I recently volunteered two days off to ALPA work. can I charge you two 10 hour days times my hourly rate? No. it is volunteer work.

When will we get to "take it back"? Seems to me like the only taking it back is going to be the flying we currently do going back to mainline.

OK... what is your point?

Until ALPA wakes up and treats all members fairly, with equal representation at the Executive Council level, it will always be a caste system. This is what's wrong with our union.

What exactly are you looking for. Explain it... without mantra, rehtoric and $100 bottle of wine. What is the issue and how do we solve it. Solutions please. Not just angst and bitter...

And I'm not an RJDC supporter, so you can't dismiss my argument by labeling me with that one.

No worries. Just be solution driven...

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am myopic because I challenge the membership to get educated, attend LEC meetings, vote. Basically become activist....

You are myopic because you are brainwashed, and are parroting the ALPA party line, like may other ALPA reps. What you ask of the membership is a pipe dream. They want you to open their heads and pour the information in. They don't want to get involved. When you've been doing this for a while, you will understand. Your membership would be much better served, however, by someone who can look at both sides of the issue and ask critical question, not tell everyone what to think.


Not true. Sure ALPA is not a major player. Do you expect them to be and if so why?

Which part isn't true? How much influence do you really think ALPA will have on the age 65 rule?

So lets work the ISSUE! I am not saying we can work on your scope deal. But if you want to focus on dinner menu's then it will take a much longer time.

I recently volunteered two days off to ALPA work. can I charge you two 10 hour days times my hourly rate? No. it is volunteer work.

I once volunteered 5 years of my life to ALPA work. Your point?

OK... what is your point?

My point is that you need to treat ALPA with suspicion. Look at both sides of the issues before you make a decision. The truth is always in the middle of the rhetoric

What exactly are you looking for. Explain it... without mantra, rhetoric and $100 bottle of wine. What is the issue and how do we solve it. Solutions please. Not just angst and bitter...

Are you disputing this? I've been to these dinners. I'm neither spreading angst nor bitter. The fact is that "ALPA with a Capital A" couldn't really care less what the "Small Jet" MECs think, as long as we don't cause too much trouble. And Prater learned very quickly where his support comes from. His "Takin; it Back" campaign isn't including us. I want it to.

No worries. Just be solution driven...

No worries, just be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Resist the pressure you are under and question what's happening in ALPA. Lots of it is good, but how often do the "Small Jet" carriers really get anything good? We are 45% of ALPA membership, but outgunned 6-1 on the Executive Council.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No doubt you have points.... You never responded though to the volunteer time given. Is that expected? Nonetheless...I've heard your complaints... and ALPA's got problems. Agreed. It isn't a perfect system.. so lets deal with it instead of being pissed and accusatory....

So flush or get off the pot....

cause I am tired of you whining about the cold hard seat....

 

[John Pennekamp]

No doubt you have points.... You never responded though to the volunteer time given. Is that expected? Nonetheless...I've heard your complaints... and ALPA's got problems. Agreed. It isn't a perfect system.. so lets deal with it instead of being pissed and accusatory....

So flush or get off the pot....

cause I am tired of you whining about the cold hard seat....

I've done my tour of duty. It's your turn... you wanted the job. Now fix it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've done my tour of duty. It's your turn... you wanted the job. Now fix it!

I'll do my best. Would you mind keeping it down over there in the cheap seats?:beer:

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'll do my best. Would you mind keeping it down over there in the cheap seats?:beer:

No, you can count on me and many others here in the peanut gallery heckling you. That's part of the job.

You said your position is "fixing ALPA". Many before you have gone in thinking they would fix it too. They are the ones who got "fixed", in the sense of taking your male puppy to the vet. Don't let it happen to you, regardless of the peer pressure you feel from the other ALPA reps.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, you can count on me and many others here in the peanut gallery heckling you. That's part of the job.

And why would you do that?

You said your position is "fixing ALPA". Many before you have gone in thinking they would fix it too. They are the ones who got "fixed", in the sense of taking your male puppy to the vet. Don't let it happen to you, regardless of the peer pressure you feel from the other ALPA reps.

Thanks for your support.

 

[merlindrvr88]

What?

And why would you do that?



Thanks for your support.

What's wrong with something new Rez? Maybe unions at each seperate airline might be the best solution. ALPO can't represent mainline and regionals at the same time. Lawyers call that a conflict of interest. Wake up Rez and give me a call, I will clue you in on ALPO. 928-846-1364. please give me a call, unless you don't want to hear some facts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What's wrong with something new Rez? Maybe unions at each seperate airline might be the best solution. ALPO can't represent mainline and regionals at the same time. Lawyers call that a conflict of interest. Wake up Rez and give me a call, I will clue you in on ALPO. 928-846-1364. please give me a call, unless you don't want to hear some facts.

I am all for change and innovation...

In addition, I agree the situation is broke. Let's fix it.

What ideas do you have that are workable?


And this is the roadblock... the ideas haven't surfaced.... No one wants to take responsibility.. they just want to point fingers and say..."see it's FUBAR and THEY won't fix it!!"

 

[DrewBlows]

What's wrong with something new Rez? Maybe unions at each seperate airline might be the best solution. ALPO can't represent mainline and regionals at the same time. Lawyers call that a conflict of interest. Wake up Rez and give me a call, I will clue you in on ALPO. 928-846-1364. please give me a call, unless you don't want to hear some facts.

Good god man! Do you know how many people read these threads after a long night of drinking? I hope that's not really your phone number for your sake.

 

[merlindrvr88]

Start Over

I am all for change and innovation...

In addition, I agree the situation is broke. Let's fix it.

What ideas do you have that are workable?


And this is the roadblock... the ideas haven't surfaced.... No one wants to take responsibility.. they just want to point fingers and say..."see it's FUBAR and THEY won't fix it!!"

I am not blaming you Rez. The system done broke. We have to dismantle the whole system, and figure out a new one. ALPO doesn't want that, because their upper REPS will actually have to go back and fly the line. Case in point, Andy Hughes was the MESA MEC President for 10+ years, and when he was voted out, did he go back to the line? No NO NO, he thought the contract he had negotiated sucked, he just never had to work it before. He went to Bombardier. He was representing ALPO pilots, and telling them it was a great contract, but when he had to work it, he said I am outta here. This is the problem with ALPO. We need seperate representation for each regional. Plus, people at the union should only stay a year, and rotate back to the line, so they can see the lifestyle they are promoting. Finally, Thanks for putting my number on your signature Rez, I have changed alot of minds. Rez, I am not hateful, just give me a call, and we can talk. Here it is again, 928-846-1364

 

[JoeMerchant]

I am not blaming you Rez. The system done broke. We have to dismantle the whole system, and figure out a new one. ALPO doesn't want that, because their upper REPS will actually have to go back and fly the line. Case in point, Andy Hughes was the MESA MEC President for 10+ years, and when he was voted out, did he go back to the line? No NO NO, he thought the contract he had negotiated sucked, he just never had to work it before. He went to Bombardier. He was representing ALPO pilots, and telling them it was a great contract, but when he had to work it, he said I am outta here. This is the problem with ALPO. We need seperate representation for each regional. Plus, people at the union should only stay a year, and rotate back to the line, so they can see the lifestyle they are promoting. Finally, Thanks for putting my number on your signature Rez, I have changed alot of minds. Rez, I am not hateful, just give me a call, and we can talk. Here it is again, 928-846-1364

Did Andy really go to Bombardier after getting the boot? That really says volumes about the disconnect between some ALPA elites and the rank and file. Andy was one of the fathers of the "jets for jobs" disaster.... not sorry to see him go....

 

[Rekks Inbound]

I am not blaming you Rez. The system done broke. We have to dismantle the whole system, and figure out a new one. ALPO doesn't want that, because their upper REPS will actually have to go back and fly the line. Case in point, Andy Hughes was the MESA MEC President for 10+ years, and when he was voted out, did he go back to the line? No NO NO, he thought the contract he had negotiated sucked, he just never had to work it before. He went to Bombardier. He was representing ALPO pilots, and telling them it was a great contract, but when he had to work it, he said I am outta here. This is the problem with ALPO. We need seperate representation for each regional. Plus, people at the union should only stay a year, and rotate back to the line, so they can see the lifestyle they are promoting. Finally, Thanks for putting my number on your signature Rez, I have changed alot of minds. Rez, I am not hateful, just give me a call, and we can talk. Here it is again, 928-846-1364

No, Merlin, that is not the problem with ALPA, that is a problem that existed at the MESA MEC at the time. A LOCAL issue that the LOCAL pilots at MESA dealt with by recalling Hughes.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[CopilotDoug]

No, Merlin, that is not the problem with ALPA, that is a problem that existed at the MESA MEC at the time. A LOCAL issue that the LOCAL pilots at MESA dealt with by recalling Hughes.

Peace.

Rekks

At the time? You make 10+ years sound almost short and inconsequential. Sounds like a problem to me.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

At the time? You make 10+ years sound almost short and inconsequential. Sounds like a problem to me.

Exactly. ALPA national doesn't recall MEC chairmen, only the LEC'c do under the instruction of the membership. When they had had enough, they made the resolution to have Hughes recalled. MESA pilot group's fault, they should have recalled him much sooner.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[merlindrvr88]

Not my point.

No, Merlin, that is not the problem with ALPA, that is a problem that existed at the MESA MEC at the time. A LOCAL issue that the LOCAL pilots at MESA dealt with by recalling Hughes.

Peace.

Rekks

My point is, if you want good representation, then cycle out everybody in a year. You cannot stay at the union for more than a year. That way, you care about the contract you are fighting for. I spoke to Andy twice, and he told me it was a great contract, and it was the best we were going to get. When he got canned, the contract stunk. Surprising!! Ask around, ALPO members never fly, and when they do, they pick and choose their lines. Don't try and tell me different, I lived that garbage, and that is what ALPO is, GARBAGE!! Tell me to get informed!!! I am informed, I have lived ALPO my entire life!!! My grandfather, my father, and myself!! ALPO stinks and it needs fixing, but it won't get fixed, so we need to get rid of it and start over. I am done arguing, maybe you will think different when your grandchild is on this board and complaining. And trust me, it will happen.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My point is, if you want good representation, then cycle out everybody in a year. You cannot stay at the union for more than a year. That way, you care about the contract you are fighting for. I spoke to Andy twice, and he told me it was a great contract, and it was the best we were going to get. When he got canned, the contract stunk. Surprising!! Ask around, ALPO members never fly, and when they do, they pick and choose their lines. Don't try and tell me different, I lived that garbage, and that is what ALPO is, GARBAGE!! Tell me to get informed!!! I am informed, I have lived ALPO my entire life!!! My grandfather, my father, and myself!! ALPO stinks and it needs fixing, but it won't get fixed, so we need to get rid of it and start over. I am done arguing, maybe you will think different when your grandchild is on this board and complaining. And trust me, it will happen.

UAL MEC policy manual says two MEC Chair terms. (UAL guys?)

Sounds like a problem of the membership being apathetic. If you want the national officers to have term limits then the membership can start the resolutions.

ALPA fixin needs to start with a more active membership.... only then can changes be made.....

This is from the 1950's

Indifference within ALPA is one of the Association’s greatest problems. From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227:

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline.

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.


​

 

[CopilotDoug]

ALPA in 10 years?

UAW voices cry for militancy
Rank-and-file members claim concessions have turned the union into just another appendage of the Big 3 automakers

BY RICK POPELY
Published April 15, 2007


By most accounts, the United Auto Workers union has its back against the wall, facing the consequences of the potential sale of Chrysler Group amid expectations it will grant major concessions in contract talks with automakers just to survive.

But some UAW members are in no mood to give up anything and are challenging their leaders to fight to restore wage and health-care concessions in the next contract, which takes effect in September.

"We've trained a generation of union leaders to be cooperative, and they don't know how to fight back," said Paul Baxter, a 28-year UAW member from Zilwaukee, Mich. "We've lost our militancy."

Baxter said such cooperation, supposedly aimed at saving jobs, has become a "one-way street" that erodes union jobs, including more than 50,000 last year. The UAW's membership has fallen to about 500,000, down 116,000 from the end of 2004 and only one-third its size in 1979.

"We're actually cooperating in our own demise. Our leaders are far removed from the realities of the workplace," Baxter said. "Whatever the company says we need to do, the union goes along with it. We've become an enabler, like someone who enables an alcoholic to keep drinking."

Such a dissident voice is in sharp contrast to the UAW's typical solidarity. Union President Ron Gettelfinger usually does most of the talking, and many members are afraid to publicly disagree with union policies for the same reasons white-collar workers seldom air gripes against their employers: They fear it will mark them as malcontents and lessen their chances for promotions or choice assignments within the union.

"Part of the union is clearly broken, and a lot more is under threat," said Mike Parker, a skilled trades worker at a Chrysler plant in Sterling Heights, Mich. "There's a lot of discontent with what's going on among the membership. They feel alienated from the union and the company."

Adds Greg Shotwell, a UAW activist at a General Motors plant in Lansing, Mich., "The rank-and-file members on the shop floor are just getting fed up. Many people are afraid to speak up. If 10 people are rocking the boat, another 100 are saying, 'Yeah, yeah. You're right.' "

Gettelfinger opened a recent UAW convention with a fiery speech that called for national health care, an end to "obscene executive compensation" while blue-collar workers lose jobs and a halt to outsourcing jobs to low-wage countries. He said the union is prepared for tough negotiations this summer.

"Where we have demonstrated cooperation, it would be a grave mistake to equate our action to capitulation," Gettelfinger said in his speech.

UAW members such as Gary Walkowicz, who works at a Ford assembly plant in Dearborn, Mich., have heard rhetoric like that before and said the union hasn't kept its promise.

"We have to draw a line in the sand and give no more concessions," he said. "I really believe that is where a lot of members are today who think things are going the wrong way. It just may not have bubbled up to the surface yet."

Walkowicz and some co-workers circulated petitions at the Dearborn plant recently that called for a halt to concessions and obtained signatures from 1,000 workers in four days. Workers at other plants heard about the petition, and 1,000 more active and retired UAW members signed it.

The UAW reopened the Ford and GM contracts in 2005 to shift more health-care costs to workers, who gave up a $1 wage increase and agreed to raise their co-pay for prescription drugs.

Out-of-pocket expenses for retirees went up as much as $750 per year because they started paying premiums. Walkowicz, 57, says that was a dangerous precedent because it means retirement benefits are no longer guaranteed. That's a big reason he hasn't retired, though he is eligible with 32 years of service.

"It really opened the door for much further cuts in the future," he said. "It's not safe to retire any more. The pension and health care may not be there."

The current contract, in effect since 2003, allows automakers to replace some departing UAW workers who make about $27 an hour with new ones who start at $18 an hour. At supplier Delphi Corp., which is in bankruptcy, replacements start at $14.

"The two-tier [wage structure] opened the floodgate to concessions. Everywhere there is two-tier, there's a divided union and chaos," said Todd Jordan, who works at a Delphi plant in Kokomo, Ind., and is a leader of Soldiers of Solidarity, a dissident UAW group formed after Delphi filed for bankruptcy.

"We're no longer a union in a sense. It's run like a business, not a union," Jordan said. "We feel the UAW is going into the negotiations in a concessionary mode. They're almost like the human resources [office] for the Big Three."

 

[Rekks Inbound]

My point is, if you want good representation, then cycle out everybody in a year. You cannot stay at the union for more than a year. That way, you care about the contract you are fighting for. I spoke to Andy twice, and he told me it was a great contract, and it was the best we were going to get. When he got canned, the contract stunk. Surprising!! Ask around, ALPO members never fly, and when they do, they pick and choose their lines. Don't try and tell me different, I lived that garbage, and that is what ALPO is, GARBAGE!! Tell me to get informed!!! I am informed, I have lived ALPO my entire life!!! My grandfather, my father, and myself!! ALPO stinks and it needs fixing, but it won't get fixed, so we need to get rid of it and start over. I am done arguing, maybe you will think different when your grandchild is on this board and complaining. And trust me, it will happen.

Easy there, Tiger! You're gonna blow a gasket.

I WAS an ALPA rep, and yes, I flew the line. Every trip, save two (over a TWO and a HALF YEAR period). Those two trips were dropped during concessionary talks with our management, who determined WHEN and WHERE. In fact, every one of our reps, from the LECs to the MEC FLY THE LINE, and only drop trips when they absolutely must.

I didn't work at MESA, but I work with many who did; let me tell you, it sounds like Hughes was the exception, not the rule.

Where were you during all of this? If it was so outrageous, then YOU as a dues paying ALPA member, were responsible to put a stop to it! It was YOUR responsibility to submit a resolution to recall your MEC chairman, did you do that? If you felt that strongly about it, then it was YOUR responsibility to run for an LEC position, and petition the MEC for Hughes' removal. Or put your name in the hat for that position, when it came available. Sounds like you didn' do any of that, or if you did, not enough of your own membership agreed with you to make it happen.

I will agree with you that Hughes was lying out of his ass about the MESA contract. I actually know the MESA contract quite well, as it was the model that we had thrown in our face when we were forced into concessionary negotiations with own manegement and UAL. But it was your responsibility to keep tabs on YOUR union, and correct things as you, a dues paying member, see fit.

Peace.

Rekks