ALPA,CCair and Allegheny/Piedmont

[WSurf]

ALPA = Politics!


Define Politics and you get......

social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or power; "office politics is often counterproductive"

Bingo, that sums up ALPA

 

[DoinTime]

From your posts you really are showing how little you actually know about CCAIR. The contract that DW would not sign was rejected because of RJs going to CCAIR that Mesa pilots wanted (and which their scope clause did not entitle them to have at the time). In fact, ALPA sent a senior negotiator from national to supervise the negotiations and he signed the TA ratified by the pilots. When the Mesa pilots got wind, they went crying to Washtington and DW refused to sign. Anyone claiming differently is living a pipe dream

So how do you explain the CCAir TA being in violation of concessionary bargaining policy? Are you saying that DW should have set aside ALPA policy to accommodate a mad man like Ornstein?

If I were the MESA leadership at the time I would have cried foul too. The CCAir pilots were trying to dig well below the bottom of the industry to save their jobs (at least temporarily) and get the RJs. The airline was not in dire straights it was not facing liquidation to its creditors. JO was putting the squeeze on those pilots simply because he could. Now ALPA has to be defended for putting up a fight?

DW did what was right at CCAir. Unfortunately, there was no way to stop CCAir round 2 (aka: Freedom Air) and Mesa was ultimately denied a contract that brought them up off of the bottom of the industry.

BTW: No where in any ALPA contract will you find it signed by an ALPA attorney or staffer. Regardless of who was at the bargaining table the TA did not meet ALPA policy. Had DW signed that agreement he would have likely been recalled by his peers.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I still think your facts are way off. CCAir's prior contract was negotiated when the airline was doing pro-rate flying for airways. There was nothing concessionary in the rates for the RJ (they were above Mesa and other RJ operators). At the end of the day ALPA chose one pilot group over another - that is the real fact, trying to push it off onto Mesa or JO (while entertaining and predictable) is just not what happened. If you believe that ALPA should make such decisions, dont hide behind the blame management banner, come out and say it.

 

[Raoul Duke]

If Colgan was an ALPA carrier would it be your position that DW or JP should not have signed their contract?

 

[J and E's Daddy]

I am ex CCAIR. In fact, if it wasn't for Mesa, I might still be there today if they were still around. What happened to CCAIR? The CCAIR pilots did what nobody else did. Showed a set of b*lls and stood up to management and that convicted felon, sorry excuse for a human being and dirtbag, Jonathan Ornstein. Ornstein looked and lied to the CCAIR pilots assuring they would not lose their jobs. He whipsawed the two groups, one group showed a pair of b*lls and JO had no choice to make an example of them. The other, just rolled over and submitted to him and got what? A pathetic second Collective Bargaining Agreement which was a joke and based on getting growth. This agreement has been violated how many times? How many grievances have been filed? How is morale there? How are the working conditions? It seems like they are always canceling vacations and junior manning. And RSVs getting a mere eight days off? And the other, 22-23 days a months, used and abused? For what? Growth that has ceased.
The CCAIR pilots did what nobody else did. Stood up to management. They were made an example and the rest of the groups all slinked away or were beaten into submission, took crappy concessionary agreements. Meanwhile The companies and Management reaped the rewards on the backs of the employees. And when employees were laughed at when they confronted management. Imagine what it would be like if everyone stood up to mgt. and refused to take paycuts and concessions. Sooner or later, people will realize enough is enough, when you can no longer support your families, while the Jonathan Ornsteins of the world are owning huge houses motorcycles and expensive cars and laughing at the employees toiling away, while he sits in his air conditioned office in PHX.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Nevets]

If Colgan was an ALPA carrier would it be your position that DW or JP should not have signed their contract?

What contract?

 

[DoinTime]

If Colgan was an ALPA carrier would it be your position that DW or JP should not have signed their contract?

If Colgan were ALPA prior to Pinnacle's acquisition of them and they then entered into financially unjustified contract concessions intended solely to promote the transfer of flying from the Pinnacle certificate to the Colgan certificate you bet I would fight that with every ounce of my being. I would also expect my national union to take an equal amount of disdain of this cowardly act.

The demise of CCAir lies solely in the lap of Orstein. I cannot believe that there are those who blame their Union.

 

[jdubya]

CC Air was a great place back in the day.
You can't find a group like that anywhere now.

 

[WSurf]

CC Air was a great place back in the day.
You can't find a group like that anywhere now.

Yep! Cheers to the Carolina Cowboys!!!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

I still think your facts are way off.

His facts are just that: facts! ALPA's Admin manual has very specific requirements that must be met before concessionary bargaining can be entered into by an MEC. As DoinTime states, this is to prevent a pilot group from being forced into concessions under duress, which is exactly what JO did to the CCAir pilots. In defiance of ALPA's bargaining policy, the CCAir MEC signed a concessionary TA when JO had never presented any evidence that concessions were necessary. One of the requirements to engage in concessionary bargaining within ALPA is to have received proof of financial duress by the airline. Without that proof, CCAir's MEC was out of line in negotiating concessions. Duane had no choice but to refuse signing that TA, and he was absolutely right. That TA never should have been negotiated in the first place.

 

[J and E's Daddy]

CC Air was a great place back in the day.
You can't find a group like that anywhere now.

Most of us were all local Charlotteans, or Carolinians. and we all had handle or nicknames. Remember Freebird?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tJQsjjb4ds

This was Freebird in his former career.

 

[Bdfg1]

His facts are just that: facts!

We are all familiar with your track record regarding "facts".

See ya!

 

[fowingman]

Is Kernan still at Piedmont?


No matter what people say about him, I always thought he was always a straight shooter, and a decent guy...

 

[OPECJet]

Is Kernan still at Piedmont?


No matter what people say about him, I always thought he was always a straight shooter, and a decent guy...

Yes and agreed.

 

[Godfather]

speaking of nicknames and handles....

Most of us were all local Charlotteans, or Carolinians. and we all had handle or nicknames. Remember Freebird?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tJQsjjb4ds

This was Freebird in his former career.

WWWOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Ain't nothin like ol JW and Ric Flair gettin down that night down in the Ole D Con....LMAO!!!

Speaking of the ol nicknames and handles...Did anyone ever come up with a directory or list of everyone's names, address and nicknames? I know that Furr-burger has the friends things at Yahoo, but I can't find anything else...how many handles were there?

Gunslinger, Boner, Sparky, Chief, Conway, Spud, 22, Bandit, Fred, Bubba...little help here...


Alf....world famous CCAir alum.