ALPA backing "restricted" ATP? WHY??

[waveflyer]

I agree too acl- that's why I say make the ratings and written process more comprehensive and the truly dangerous pilots will be weeded out- right now, the process ONLY weeds out the extremely bad. An increase in flt time doesn't solve that problem-

 

[imacdog]

I really don't care.

Really.

I did it. Thousands of other pilots I know did it. Upcoming pilots can, too. Don't like it? Go do something else for a living.

200 Multicrew means they have to get a JOB that REQUIRES them to be in the aircraft, not just hopping back and forth in a Cessna/Piper/Cirrus to see your hot girlfriend/boyfriend in grad school upstate. That means a jet that requires an SIC (over 12,500 or in Part 135 operations) or in an aircraft that requires an SIC in lieu of an approved autopilot by Ops Spec.

It will take them that much longer to get through the requirements, give them some REAL WORLD experience to go with it, and add another bar to reach in the pursuit of a flying career. The only downside is operators like GIA would still have a way to function. I can see the ad now:

"Want to get that airline job? 200 Multicrew the only thing standing in your way? Come pay us $75,000 and we'll give you what you need!"

All-in-all, I wish the multicrew requirement were higher, say half that 750 hours required TT. Hope it makes its way into the bill.

I see. Do you realize how few opportunities there are to fly in a multi-crew environment that isn't A) 121 already or B) a 135 or 91 operator that won't look at you without an ATP, which is what you're trying to get. There is plenty of opportunity for pilots to become exceptionally skilled and experienced without being in a crew - in fact I would much rather fly on a regional where the FO got their time flying single pilot freight instead of being a gear bitch on a King Air.

 

[Lear70]

I see. Do you realize how few opportunities there are to fly in a multi-crew environment that isn't A) 121 already or B) a 135 or 91 operator that won't look at you without an ATP, which is what you're trying to get.

No fewer or more than there were when I was trying to do it in '94 after I graduated college and spent 2 years instructing while beating the bushes and networking on the field to get that first Part 135 King Air job.

Which means, again, that I don't really CARE how long it takes other people. I did it. Thousands of other pilots did, too. So can the up-and-coming pilots as well. It made me a better pilot by having to do it, and I'm now thankful for that experience.

There is plenty of opportunity for pilots to become exceptionally skilled and experienced without being in a crew - in fact I would much rather fly on a regional where the FO got their time flying single pilot freight instead of being a gear bitch on a King Air.

Granted. But you'd have to write that into the legislation. Instead of 250 multi-crew, let 500 hours of single-engine Part 135 PIC time count 1 hour for every 2 towards that 250. I don't have a problem with that, but you have to specifically and STRICTLY delineate that requirement and not just 500 hours be-bopping around Part 91 in a Cherokee or Seneca.

If it's something you're concerned about, call ALPA and suggest it. Seriously.

 

[imacdog]

I'm not an ALPA member. I'm just sitting back and enjoying as the law of unintended consequences unfolds, lead by completely out-of-touch union leaders and elected government officials. Have fun. I also paid my dues and had over 2500 hours of 135 PIC experience before joining a 121 carrier as an FO. Highly qualified by most people's standards, yet because I didn't sit bitch in a turboprop I would not have been eligible. Go figure that one out.

 

[waveflyer]

What about tougher academics more in line with the military and JAA?

 

[waveflyer]

This puts a LOT of leverage into the hands of small operators working at the edge of their finances-

as much as I thought it was corny to see gen Y get wrapped around the axle flying at the mesa's and skywest's of the world-I actually don't advocate a dumb flight time reg that makes our low time pilots fly crappy airplanes at slave wages under rest rules that make mesa's schedule look nice- (look up 135 non-sched- 1400/year, 800 in 2 cons qtrs, 500/qtr- )
I'm ok w/ 1500TT- but not w/ the 200 crew- there will be opportunistic companies that will bludgeon young pilots trying to fight for a career. This kind of leverage is how "regionals" came to be.

 

[Lear70]

That "bludgeoning" was happening long before "Gen Y".

I remember a buddy of mine dying in a Cherokee 6 hauling checks from TYS to BNA. No anti-ice, pushed into taking the flight into an oncoming snowstorm.

I know exactly of what you speak, the early- to mid-90's were a crappy, crappy time for pilot hiring as well. And yes, this will likely bring back many of those types of operators...

I agree about the increased academics, but you're talking about a COMPLETE re-write of the PTS and the FAA and without the spotlight on the FAA for lack of TRAINING or INADEQUACIES in the training process in general, good luck with that one.

Sometimes it's about fighting the battle that's winnable, then moving on to the next battle that really DOES make the difference. That's how you win the WAR... Strategy for this kind of thing moves in DECADES, not just months.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Is alpa ever going to stop shooting it self in the foot?

No....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

ALPA is acting like an Association and putting the best interests of those IN the 121 profession in mind. It is protecting its members.

Yes, thank you. That's what they're doing exactly. Raise the bar significantly high and just maybe restore the profession. Too bad it took lives and tears and congress to actually get this done. I'd say much too little too late on ALPA's part.

 

[Flightdawg]

Yes, thank you. That's what they're doing exactly. Raise the bar significantly high and just maybe restore the profession.

Looks that way to me too.

Not sure how they could have made it happen sooner. Look how many years they've been fighting for better rest rules. The airline lobbies are very powerful and very well funded. The only reason this came up is because of the Colgan crash which caused many passengers to write their congressmen.

 

[beagle pilot]

ALPA volunteers work very hard to improve the safety of our profession. The fact we can't always accomplish change due to the counter-actions of the ATA, RAA and other business leaders doesn't mean we are not trying hard enough.

From the ALPA EASC page: http://crewroom.alpa.org/safety/Default.aspx?tabid=2427

From the public page ALPA Safety & Security: http://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2010/FastRead_20100305.htm#02

From the public page ALPA advocacy link: http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/PressRoom/PressReleases/2010/PraterJPMorgan_3-12-10.htm


While I support members rights to voice opinions, I ask that they remember "ALPA" isn't like King George III ruling taxing America from afar. ALPA is a volunteer organization where every pilot volunteer comes from the same cockpits and airlines as the rest of us. Except for those appointed by an MEC or the Executive Council to be on full time union leave, ALPA volunteers do most of their work on their own time. Occasionally they will be given union leave to attend an event, a meeting or other important function, but day-to-day activities are on their own free time. Those that love to toss rocks at ALPA are actually tossing those rocks at these same volunteers who are in the same cockpits as the rest of us.

 

[flygirlqt]

ALPA volunteers work very hard to improve the safety of our profession. The fact we can't always accomplish change due to the counter-actions of the ATA, RAA and other business leaders doesn't mean we are not trying hard enough.

From the ALPA EASC page: http://crewroom.alpa.org/safety/Default.aspx?tabid=2427

From the public page ALPA Safety & Security: http://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2010/FastRead_20100305.htm#02

From the public page ALPA advocacy link: http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/PressRoom/PressReleases/2010/PraterJPMorgan_3-12-10.htm


While I support members rights to voice opinions, I ask that they remember "ALPA" isn't like King George III ruling taxing America from afar. ALPA is a volunteer organization where every pilot volunteer comes from the same cockpits and airlines as the rest of us. Except for those appointed by an MEC or the Executive Council to be on full time union leave, ALPA volunteers do most of their work on their own time. Occasionally they will be given union leave to attend an event, a meeting or other important function, but day-to-day activities are on their own free time. Those that love to toss rocks at ALPA are actually tossing those rocks at these same volunteers who are in the same cockpits as the rest of us.

The growing angst with ALPA has nothing to do with the volunteers, It has everything to do with the absurd pay with National.

 

[beagle pilot]

The growing angst with ALPA has nothing to do with the volunteers, It has everything to do with the absurd pay with National.

You mean the pay and budget our volunteers approved? Do you believe the Prater sets his own pay? Who runs this union, Prater or the membership through the EC?

While I understand your frustration on some issues, it is very important that we each share a very clear understanding on how our Union works so that we may make it better. Misunderstanding the facts only leads to the wrong solutions for problems.

 

[waveflyer]

I know many of you disagree- but if you're not current and flying a trip now and then - I don't want you representing me.

 

[beagle pilot]

I know many of you disagree- but if you're not current and flying a trip now and then - I don't want you representing me.

Many MEC's have voted to make that a requirement of their elected leadership. Did yours?

 

[Lear70]

Many MEC's have voted to make that a requirement of their elected leadership. Did yours?

Nothing like taking your top leadership out of the MEC offices during critical times....

I 100% support full-time buy during negotiations for my MEC leadership. The rest of the time? No, they can go fly. During negotiations? No way...

YMMV

 

[beagle pilot]

Nothing like taking your top leadership out of the MEC offices during critical times....

I 100% support full-time buy during negotiations for my MEC leadership. The rest of the time? No, they can go fly. During negotiations? No way...

Agreed. Nothing there that conflicts with the idea of having reps "current and flying a trip now and then". ALPA National is a little different, but at the MEC level I think it is best to keep the reps current and flying.

 

[waveflyer]

I want my reps passionate about the job and connected to what it's like on the line.

Seems to me, most bad things happen when reps or chiefs forget what flying a line is like- they get out of touch.

Again- national or local, negotiations or not, I want my reps current and flying- it's really not so hard that I buy it's such a huge distraction. I got an MBA while flying a regional schedule...plenty operate businesses on the side while flying a complete line. This is not too much to ask IMHO.

Nope- I'm not alpa- but haven't proposed this to Swapa- still getting to know how they do things

 

[Lear70]

I want my reps passionate about the job and connected to what it's like on the line.

Reps? Absolutely. There's no reason they can't fly a FULL line except for the occasional trip buy because they couldn't bid off for MEC meetings, SPSC events, etc.

MEC Pres, VP, and Neg Chair? Especially when things get down towards the end and you're gearing up the SPSC for informational picketing, strike vote, etc? Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Other than that, I agree with you 100%. Having done union work I wouldn't want to be in those offices 12 hours a day like our officers are now (strike vote starts this morning at 10:00) *AND* have to fly a trip as well every month. I'd never be home.

However, I may be a bit biased. After what happened to me, I'll never do union work again. It's worth it to make sure we help raise the bar for the entire industry as well as our own airline, but on a personal level, the sacrifice was too much. Therefore, since I never want to do union work again, I want to give the pilots who DO step up ALL the support they need.

 

[waveflyer]

I respect that.
I've heard references to your story before, but don't know what happened. Are you able to give any of that story on here?