ALPA at Jetlbue

[Freedom]

NOTHING infuriated me more during the JBPA vote than our corporate puppet spokes-cow releasing statements like, "We don't believe third party representation is in our pilots' best interest."

Oh really Jenny?! You know what's in my best interest???

Tell you what....drop dead. I'll decide what's in best interest for me and family....thanks.

She better keep that gaping hole under her nose shut during this vote.

This is standard Union Busting 101.

If you really want to know what the other side is plotting against you, go order the book "Confessions of a Union Buster" by Marty Levitt on Amazon.com.

If you want a quicker summary of the propoganda war being unleashed upon you, just go to Wikipedia and search "Union Buster."

The clouds will start clearing and you will have a better idea why Management is doing what it is.

Oh one last thing. If you do vote in the Union, your battle has just begun. You don't have crap until you have a first contract, and most first contracts take anywhere from 3-5 years to negotiate.

So if you want to work under a contract (why else would you have a union?), just know you might not have what you are looking for, for 5 long years.

A Union Buster hired at a previous employer of mine once said, "A Company get the Union it deserves."

Does JetBlue deserve a Union? Federal Law says that is up to you, the Line Pilot to decide, not Management.

Good Luck with your decision.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So if you want to work under a contract (why else would you have a union?), just know you might not have what you are looking for, for 5 long years.


.

The other reason to have a union is called democracy in the workplace. I realize that the ideal of democracy is something we value, but the practice of it is not. Not sure why REAL Americans reject their constitutional rights once they enter the workplace.

A union allows workers to exercise many rights including the First Amendment. Part of being professional pilot is the ability to represent oneself to government.

A jetblue pilot should ask the question...

Why do I not have American Rights afforded to me by the US Constitution when I work?

 

[Dave's kid]

A jetblue pilot should ask the question...

Why do I not have American Rights afforded to me by the US Constitution when I work?

Just curious Rez, what U.S. Constitutional right am I missing out on because I'm not ALPA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just curious Rez, what U.S. Constitutional right am I missing out on because I'm not ALPA?

First off, not ALPA rather union.

Unions are democracy in the workplace.

For example, any employee, union or not, that uses a company computer to send personal emails.. those emails become the property of the company. Meaning, when you sign up to be a wage slave, including pilots, you agree to give up your constitutional rights. While you do have federal, state and local labor law to protect you if you can afford representation, try testifying to Congress or talking to the press that is not in favor of your management. Wage earners will do almost whatever they are told to ensure that paycheck keeps coming. (how does one then enforce professional values when flying the line? The FAA?) Especially when they are manipulated through tried and true yet subtle communications such as frames and conditioning.

Companies like Airtran and Jetblue and every corporation are interested in one objective: profit. They are not interested in American values, justice, truth, freedom, liberty and fairness. Specifically, if you find yourself as a "loss" situation for a company, the company simply will cut its losses, American values be damned. You would need representation to protect your employment, just as one would in a court room.

Interesting how, I specifically stated the First Amendment in my post, yet your replied...

what U.S. Constitutional right am I missing out on

​

Specifically the American Right within the First Amendment

or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
​

What union workers do is exercise free speech (speak against the company or govt), the right to assemble (demonstrate) and petition the govt (testify/lobby).

The reason why MLKjr was in MEM when he was shot was he was assisting in the MEM sanitation workers right to a union, specifically the grievance process was a main concern. This is a fundamental right of workers and a cornerstone to democracy.

The question to ask is why do so many Americans reject workplace democracy?

Jetblue management exercises democracy via the ATA. What is interesting is the pilots in a way pay for it. Idealistically, one would think the pilots would say to JB management: we generate the revenue you use to pay ATA dues, therefore we want a seat at the table.

Corporate management knows how to leverage the govt to increase profits. One only needs to look at the TARP fiasco initiated by Bush and continued by Obama. If 2008 was the greatest financial crises of our generation, why was 2009 Wall Streets greatest profit year..... ever!?? ( I doubt Fox and CNN will tell you....)

In part because corporations like JB know how to leverage govt.

Do JB pilots know how to leverage govt? Do they know how to exercise Constitutional rights in the workplace? Can one show me where/how jb pilots have interacted with govt on behalf of all JB pilots and the profession? (even if they have, I doubt it is a standing group of effectiveness)

Unfortunately, democracy cost money. Money buys access. Unless the JB pilots organize, they will have no access. In house unions like the APA and SWAPA have some access, ALPA through size has more.

Self governance can be daunting. It is easier too simply check out and let management have control of your career, meaning your ability to feed, cloth and house your family. However, letting a central figure or group decide for you what is best doesn't seem all that American to me....

 

[Blue Dude]

Rez, that doesn't make the vaguest amount of sense. The Constitution sets out what government can and cannot do. It doesn't apply to employers. And by the way, we don't live under a democracy, thank God. We have a representative republic, which is not remotely the same thing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, that doesn't make the vaguest amount of sense.

Of course it does not. Because you have been conditioned and framed to believe that democracy is not part of the workplace. Any idea who would benefit the most and the least from this thinking?

The Constitution sets out what government can and cannot do.

Said differently it states what rights citizens have. The question for you is.... are you a US citizen in the workplace?


Why is it that JB corporation has been defined as a "person" and afforded the rights and protections of the US Constitution but you as a worker are not? In addition, you are a citizen but JB is not.

It doesn't apply to employers.

I guess you do not view yourself as a citizen in the workplace. So what are you? A subject of JB? An employee that only has privileges granted by JB, that can be altered and revoked?

What does it mean then to be a JB pilot?

And by the way, we don't live under a democracy, thank God.
We have a representative republic, which is not remotely the same thing.

Of course... whatever you want/need America to be... or have been told...

Anyway.... you seem to suggest that control over your ability to provide for yourself and family is properly and justly served best by corporate managers whose main concern is profit. So what does that make you? Whatever it is, it doesn't sound very American to me....

 

[Blue Dude]

Said differently it states what rights citizens have.

The Constitution clarifies the inalienable rights citizens have with respect to the government. It especially clarifies what the government can and cannot do, as the government is the only entity legally able to use force to obtain its goals. It is entirely silent on the relationship between an employee and an employer.

You can use as much rousing political rhetoric as you like but it doesn't change the fact that the US Constitution isn't a labor relations document and never has been. Give it up, Rez, you're headed toward a dead end with this line of thinking.

Anyway.... you seem to suggest that control over your ability to provide for yourself and family is properly and justly served best by corporate managers whose main concern is profit. So what does that make you? Whatever it is, it doesn't sound very American to me....

This is an utter non-sequitur. One of these things is not like the other...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The Constitution clarifies the inalienable rights citizens have with respect to the government. It especially clarifies what the government can and cannot do, as the government is the only entity legally able to use force to obtain its goals. It is entirely silent on the relationship between an employee and an employer.

Great... I agree. Then why are corporations considered people? Why do corporations have US Constitution protections? Why does a corporation, which is nothing but a bundle of contracts have the ability to influence govt to pass laws and interpret policy in its favor and your detriment? Does govt serve you or JB corporation? Is the US govt an entity of the, for the and by the people? Or is the US Govt of the, for the, by the corporations? And if so, where does that leave you, the worker?

You can use as much rousing political rhetoric as you like but it doesn't change the fact that the US Constitution isn't a labor relations document and never has been. Give it up, Rez, you're headed toward a dead end with this line of thinking.

Again.. then leave labor relations out of it. But the fact is, there is the Dept of labor and the NMB and a Congress and a White House. These govt departments determine was can and can't happen in labor relations. Either you can be a part of these relations or you can leave it up to JB management to speak on your behalf when they deal with govt.

This is an utter non-sequitur. One of these things is not like the other...

I disagree. I think it speaks to the very essence of American liberty and freedom. Without a job a citizen can not function as a citizen and exercise democracy.

You seem content to be beholden and confined to the wishes of your corporate mast... er I mean managers. Why?


The problem is our society has allowed itself to be conditioned to consumerism not citizenship. Along with the whole mindset of being good obedient workers that don't speak for themselves, show up to work, take whatever pay they are given and gladly go to the market and consume.

 

[N813CA]

ALPA has done nothing for me in the last 10 years!

 

[BeachBummer]

ALPA has done nothing for me in the last 10 years!

I'd say lucky you. You havn't needed LOL, LTD, had a grievance, bent any metal and needed a lawyer, or had an accident at work. Ever slip in an icy glycol mix and break a shoulder? How long till you get a medical back? well here you'd be lucky to still qualify for cobra.

I guess your company gave you all that stuff in the contract voluntarily.
Work rules, trip rigs, min gurantees, 401K, vacation, yea you've had non of that in 10years right? Just curious what would ya pay to birth a child on your plan?

Merge yet? How'd that work out?

You've got alot more at your disposal with alpa than the average bear.

But your blanket statment that ALPA has done nothing... even if your contract is concessionary(how would that have gone without them) is far from true.

 

[hyflyin]

I'd say lucky you. You havn't needed LOL, LTD, had a grievance, bent any metal and needed a lawyer, or had an accident at work. Ever slip in an icy glycol mix and break a shoulder? How long till you get a medical back? well here you'd be lucky to still qualify for cobra.

Alpa not needed for any of this, but it could use some help.

I guess your company gave you all that stuff in the contract voluntarily.
Work rules, trip rigs, min gurantees, 401K, vacation, yea you've had non of that in 10years right? Just curious what would ya pay to birth a child on your plan?

Given most of this, sometimes more, sometimes less than what Alpa provided. And didn't have to pay the 1-2% to get it.

Merge yet? How'd that work out?

How did it work out for the TWA guys??

You've got alot more at your disposal with alpa than the average bear.

Very true, but is it worth it? Not sure at this point.

But your blanket statment that ALPA has done nothing... even if your contract is concessionary(how would that have gone without them) is far from true.

Independent unions have faired far better than anyone in Alpa for a long time.

Don't get me wrong, Alpa has definitely made strides since the beginning of aviation, but they have also moved back quite a bit from where they were. They are no longer the power house they used to be. Perhaps Moak can bring them back.

 

[N813CA]

Wow

A good company can offer good benefits if they want too. You are right I have never bent metal. The only people I have witnessed getting their jobs back because of ALPA didn't deserve their job. I work for a non-union company and my benefits are as good if not better than my last ALPA company.

 

[aewanabe]

Just curious, you're comparing your benefits at an LCC to those you had at Comair? We've got a ton of guys at Blue who did this too. "It's better here than it was at MESA, and I had ALPA there, so obviously this place rocks". Newsflash- It's SUPPOSED to be better.

 

[Smarta$$]

The Constitution clarifies the inalienable rights citizens have with respect to the government. It especially clarifies what the government can and cannot do, as the government is the only entity legally able to use force to obtain its goals. It is entirely silent on the relationship between an employee and an employer.

You can use as much rousing political rhetoric as you like but it doesn't change the fact that the US Constitution isn't a labor relations document and never has been. Give it up, Rez, you're headed toward a dead end with this line of thinking.



This is an utter non-sequitur. One of these things is not like the other...

Pot meet kettle.

 

[Lake Alice]

This is what gets me in the ALPA debate. If you work for a regional carrier or the cargo equivalent you are essentially being paid by the mainline carrier. You are a third party. Why on earth would that mainline carrier provide you with an industry leading compensation package? In order for the mainline carrier to record a higher profit you must be paid, as a contractor, the least amount negotiable. All ALPA can do in these situations is help you negotiate a fair wage and benefits, not industry leading. At a mainline carrier ALPA can help you achieve industry leading because you are negotiating directly with the source and not as a third party.
Each of you who thought, as a regional pilot, that you should be paid closer to your mainline counterparts did not understand the nature of business and your situations. Every mainline ALPA pilot has better benefits, pay, retirement, recall rights, safety department and overall protections than every Jetblue pilot.
Yes, we have a good relationship with management at Jetblue and outsiders take that to mean that the company is "taking care of us" hence the anti-union argument. In reality we are still substantially behind our peers in nearly every category. Add to that the lack of any protections or ability to negotiate any changes. We are told what we will accept, period!
Lastly, the company/employee group relationship is a function of the elected leadership.