ALPA....A union or not? Time to decide!

[COOPERVANE]

Doooooooosh!

 

[crj567]

Interesting new angle on the RJDC, Joe...

By extension, you would have to give everyone at every carrier DOH-exactly what the RJDC was after. A single national list. Great idea in concept, but it will never happen. Every other airline will leave ALPA before they let all these people on their lists.

-Now is not the time to make more enemies at mainline. Another attempted seniority grab for anyone would lend far more ammo to the haters at all the majors. And-yes, this is what the core of the RJDC was really all about-it was the elephant in the room.

-Let's not go through this crap all over again-we have had our teeth kicked in for too long. Comair is a lost cause. They didn't look out for anyone else when times were good (remember what they did to get all those shiny new 70s a few years back?) How many DAL furloughees worked there?

-Why the hell should I fall on my sword for Comair? If you want to pick a good pilot group to stand up and fight for-they are not the one. They have made way too many enemies through the years. Enemies within our union, DALs union, and DALs mgmt. Hell-I can't think of many enemies they haven't made in the last decade.

-Just let the RJDC go away, Joe. Its far past time.

 

[CFI2766]

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

What is your objective here?

What are you looking to accomplish?

What is in the zone amongst our peers with regard to reasonableness on this idea?

What would your response be when you are asked about how your own personal seniority factored into this decision?

What would your response be when asked about your proposal by an ASA FO just coming back off of furlough?

I could support their CMH DOH for longevity purposes, but I don't see how our membership could support guys coming to our list with other carriers DOH for bidding purposes. If we collectively decided to do that, why stop at CMH? Why not have a furloughed Delta guy bump everyone, including the senior lifers who intend to stay at ASA for the duration, on the ASA list down a spot? (Do we really just want to keep a seat warm for someone else?) Why not have a furloughed CAL/UAL guy do the same thing? How about a furloughed Eastern guy? Braniff? TWA? Pan-Am?

What is the value of seniority to a pilot? Stated differently, we all agree that there is significant value to seniority, but what dollar amount could be placed on seniority for an individual pilot? Since you are asking a junior pilot at ASA to give up a significant amount, or take a take a significant concession which would be more than what was asked of a senior pilot at ASA with this proposal, what would you propose to make that situation fair for the junior ASA pilot?

How would this proposal fairly represent the junior pilots at ASA?

Are you sure that this isn't simply a decertification effort in disguise?

 

[JustaNumber]

Why not have a furloughed CAL/UAL guy do the same thing? How about a furloughed Eastern guy? Braniff? TWA? Pan-Am?

I think the idea is to only implement this if we receive airplanes from Comair. If this plan was implemented, it would need to have very strict allowances for x number of Comair pilots for every x number of Comair airplanes. In essence it would be ASA pilots forgoing a seniority advancement windfall just because DCI shuffles airplanes. I need to think about it some more, but I think I'm actually okay with this. It would in essence be a merger with Comair--junior ASA FOs would see new airplanes join the company, along with the pilots who originally flew them, and it would not affect them positively or negatively one bit. No one is talking about taking other furloughees at random--just pilots along with their airplanes. This plan might actually set a good precedent that could protect your own seniority one day.

 

[Ad Lib]

Interesting new angle on the RJDC, Joe...

By extension, you would have to give everyone at every carrier DOH-exactly what the RJDC was after.

Joe's unwritten resolution, if passed, would only be advisory to his Local Counsil, in no way bind his Reps, or his Master Counsil. Since even he has not bothered to post a proposed resolution, that is one heck of an extension you are assuming.

Just as you are assuming the RJDC was about "every one at every carrier having DOH." You are wrong. The RJDC was about ALPA's action to block scope needed by the Regional airlines to restrict the outsourcing of regional flying.

ALPA's outsourcing plan at major carriers was predicated on the concept that regional airlines would perform the work for lower compensation. Mainline pilots partnered with management to share the benefits of this outsourcing arrangement.

If regional airlines increase(d) their pay, the benefits of outsourcing would cease to exist. Thus the concept of cross collateralizing one pilot's pay with another pilot's labor would fail if the regional pilots got scope over outsourced flying and increased their pay. So ALPA used it's position as exclusive bargaining Agent to block regional carriers from binding their parent companies (as ASA and Comair both tried to do).

At it's core, the RJDC's action was over scope, not seniority.

As the RJDC faded into history, note that mainline pilots have still outsourced flying, outsourcing larger airplanes and more of them. The mainline pilots blamed the RJDC to unify their pilots against a common enemy, but the truth was (and is) that the mainline pilots were the only ALPA members at the table when their flying was outsourced and mainline pilots ratified those agreements. The RJDC had no effect on outsourcing ... it just hoped to enable regional MEC's to have their own scope which bound outsourced flying at the source.

The act of a union partnering with management to outsource work to benefit preferred members is a poison to the concept of collective bargaining. Union after union has failed as a result of these policies. Joe is right to question the union credentials of anyone who supports these outsourcing schemes. Not that Joe's big on trying to fix ALPA. He's simply knows where the cracks are and exploits them to get folks on the web board upset.

He knows his own Local would never even buy off on his proposal to extend DOH bidding to Comair pilots, so he can toss the concept out there like a grenade and see who jumps on it.

Apparently you and I jumped... .

 

[Ad Lib]

I think the idea is to only implement this if we receive airplanes from Comair. If this plan was implemented, it would need to have very strict allowances for x number of Comair pilots for every x number of Comair airplanes. In essence it would be ASA pilots forgoing a seniority advancement windfall just because DCI shuffles airplanes. I need to think about it some more, but I think I'm actually okay with this. It would in essence be a merger with Comair--junior ASA FOs would see new airplanes join the company, along with the pilots who originally flew them, and it would not affect them positively or negatively one bit. No one is talking about taking other furloughees at random--just pilots along with their airplanes. This plan might actually set a good precedent that could protect your own seniority one day.

Haven't ASA and Comair had ample opportunity to pursue a merger long before now? What makes a merger more appealing just because there are unsubstantiated rumors that management might do something with Comair?

 

[JustaNumber]

I doubt it would be feasable to get management to agree to take Comair pilots while honoring their longevity; it would cost a fortune in negotiating capital that I would not be willing to spend. It would cost the company almost no money, on the other hand, to hire Comair pilots on at first year pay, but with full seniority for bidding purposes. It would actually be the most advantageous thing ever for them--they could get captains with 25 years of experience for about $60k/year. This would lower ASA's labor costs and allow us a comptitive advantage against other regionals. For the Comair pilot who watched his airline get dissolved and is facing the unemployment line, a $60k/yr job with advancement possibilities (especially in this economy) would seem pretty good compared to the alternatives. For the ASA pilots, as I said in my previous post, it would have little to no effect on their career advancement (athough there would be an additional airplane to eventually sit in when the old Comair captains retire soon), but it would be an investment in precedent to possibly protect one's own seniority and job in the future. That, and it seems like it would be the right thing to do.

So this idea would be good for the company, good for the Comair pilots, and in the long run, good for the ASA pilots. I think it's a very innovative idea, Joe.

 

[CFI2766]

I think the idea is to only implement this if we receive airplanes from Comair. If this plan was implemented, it would need to have very strict allowances for x number of Comair pilots for every x number of Comair airplanes. In essence it would be ASA pilots forgoing a seniority advancement windfall just because DCI shuffles airplanes. I need to think about it some more, but I think I'm actually okay with this. It would in essence be a merger with Comair--junior ASA FOs would see new airplanes join the company, along with the pilots who originally flew them, and it would not affect them positively or negatively one bit. No one is talking about taking other furloughees at random--just pilots along with their airplanes. This plan might actually set a good precedent that could protect your own seniority one day.

At the risk of picking up this metaphorical grenade, I saw nothing in Joe's post that even obliquely suggested anything about Comair A/C coming to ASA. The exact opposite was what I read from his post; Comair pilots coming to the ASA seniority list with their OH DOH to be used for bidding purposes at ASA in the event of the demise of Comair.

Which situation were you calling for, Joe?

If there are Comair A/C to come to ASA as part of a Fragmentation of Comair assets or as a function of ASA Succeeding Comair management of those assets, then I would fully support the Comair pilots coming over to the ASA list IAW both collective bargaining agreements and ALPA Merger policy. Stated differently, I am opposed to ASA pilots realizing a seniority windfall because of the demise of Comair, or anyone else. This clearly does set a bad precedent for our collective futures.

 

[CFI2766]

I doubt it would be feasable to get management to agree to take Comair pilots while honoring their longevity; it would cost a fortune in negotiating capital that I would not be willing to spend. It would cost the company almost no money, on the other hand, to hire Comair pilots on at first year pay, but with full seniority for bidding purposes. It would actually be the most advantageous thing ever for them--they could get captains with 25 years of experience for about $60k/year. This would lower ASA's labor costs and allow us a comptitive advantage against other regionals. For the Comair pilot who watched his airline get dissolved and is facing the unemployment line, a $60k/yr job with advancement possibilities (especially in this economy) would seem pretty good compared to the alternatives. For the ASA pilots, as I said in my previous post, it would have little to no effect on their career advancement (athough there would be an additional airplane to eventually sit in when the old Comair captains retire soon), but it would be an investment in precedent to possibly protect one's own seniority and job in the future. That, and it seems like it would be the right thing to do.

So this idea would be good for the company, good for the Comair pilots, and in the long run, good for the ASA pilots. I think it's a very innovative idea, Joe.

Again, to consider this proposal accurately, let's restate some important points:

1. Nowhere in Joe's post did he suggest anything about aircraft coming over from Comair, or anyone else.

2. The vast majority of Comair's fleet are 200s, an aircraft that Delta has made clear that it wants to substantially reduce, or even eliminate.

3. The average seniority of a Comair pilot is significantly greater than the ASA pilot.

Maybe I'm missing it here, but how is this idea good for the ASA Captain who just upgraded, or worse, just got the fourth stripe back?

How is this idea a good idea for the ASA FO who is just about to upgrade?

How is this a good idea for the ASA FO just back from furlough?

How would this not be a seniority windfall for the Comair pilot?


You state that it would cost the Company almost no money...to hire Comair pilots at first year pay, but with DOH for bidding purposes. This would cost every FO at ASA a significant amount of money in delayed upgrade under Joe's proposal.

Respectfully, your assertion that this would have little or no effect on career advancement is tenuous, at very best.

 

[CFI2766]

Additional issue: Comair has 300ish on furlough, while ASA has zero. How would the guys on furlough at Comair be handled? In a scenario where they would be granted DOH bidding at ASA, without any additional A/C growth at ASA, wouldn't they then push 300ish ASA pilots out the door?

 

[Midge]

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

There is so much wrong with the above post, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[JustaNumber]

Again, to consider this proposal accurately, let's restate some important points:

1. Nowhere in Joe's post did he suggest anything about aircraft coming over from Comair, or anyone else.

2. The vast majority of Comair's fleet are 200s, an aircraft that Delta has made clear that it wants to substantially reduce, or even eliminate.

3. The average seniority of a Comair pilot is significantly greater than the ASA pilot.

Maybe I'm missing it here, but how is this idea good for the ASA Captain who just upgraded, or worse, just got the fourth stripe back?

How is this idea a good idea for the ASA FO who is just about to upgrade?

How is this a good idea for the ASA FO just back from furlough?

How would this not be a seniority windfall for the Comair pilot?


You state that it would cost the Company almost no money...to hire Comair pilots at first year pay, but with DOH for bidding purposes. This would cost every FO at ASA a significant amount of money in delayed upgrade under Joe's proposal.

Respectfully, your assertion that this would have little or no effect on career advancement is tenuous, at very best.

Additional issue: Comair has 300ish on furlough, while ASA has zero. How would the guys on furlough at Comair be handled? In a scenario where they would be granted DOH bidding at ASA, without any additional A/C growth at ASA, wouldn't they then push 300ish ASA pilots out the door?

Thanks for the respectful reply--this issue is obviously extremely contentious, but I'm willing to look at all sides to possibly improve the instability of this career.

The way I see it, for an FO about to upgrade or just off furlough, they would see a position bid come out for 5 new captain spots for each Comair airplane we got, but they would not be able to hold those slots. It would be identical to us having never received those airplanes. Obviously it starts getting complicated when reshuffling happens with base openings and closings and associated displacements, but I'm trying to look at the big picture to see how this might benefit us as a whole.

As for Comair furloughees, they wouldn't come over unless they brought an airplane with them, so our recently returned furloughees would not be affected. What the proposal here does is basically effect a virtual merger of two airlines for pilot career purposes, without ASA having to officially call it a merger or have high costs associated with a formal merger. I am willing to look at all the pitfalls, though.

 

[CFI2766]

Thanks for the respectful reply--this issue is obviously extremely contentious, but I'm willing to look at all sides to possibly improve the instability of this career.

Agree.

The way I see it, for an FO about to upgrade or just off furlough, they would see a position bid come out for 5 new captain spots for each Comair airplane we got, but they would not be able to hold those slots. It would be identical to us having never received those airplanes. Obviously it starts getting complicated when reshuffling happens with base openings and closings and associated displacements, but I'm trying to look at the big picture to see how this might benefit us as a whole.

Agree for Captains, but what about FOs?

As for Comair furloughees, they wouldn't come over unless they brought an airplane with them, so our recently returned furloughees would not be affected. What the proposal here does is basically effect a virtual merger of two airlines for pilot career purposes, without ASA having to officially call it a merger or have high costs associated with a formal merger. I am willing to look at all the pitfalls, though.

Agree.


I too am open to any realistic options to increase the dihedral of this career. Let's be fair, however. Using the exact same logic that you have presented, a junior FO at ASA could make a proposal at the next LEC meeting (toothless, I know) to invert the current seniority list for all purposes. This too would save the company money, would it not?

The seniority system, flawed and unjust as it is, is probably the best system out there to protect the interests of the entire pilot group in the face of corporate interests.

Again, I am open to looking for other options as well as the pitfalls of those options, but after nearly 100 years of commercial aviation, no other viable ideas have presented themselves.

 

[CFIT]

I support it the concept.

Rez do you, put aside your steadfast ALPO support and take a stand, be a pilot and not an ALPO cheerleader?

Rez, PCL, where do you stand?

 

[sayrejm]

Did anyone mention what would happen should the number of aircraft subsequently become reduced do to unforeseen market conditions?