ALPA....A union or not? Time to decide!

[Ad Lib]

I think the idea is to only implement this if we receive airplanes from Comair. If this plan was implemented, it would need to have very strict allowances for x number of Comair pilots for every x number of Comair airplanes. In essence it would be ASA pilots forgoing a seniority advancement windfall just because DCI shuffles airplanes. I need to think about it some more, but I think I'm actually okay with this. It would in essence be a merger with Comair--junior ASA FOs would see new airplanes join the company, along with the pilots who originally flew them, and it would not affect them positively or negatively one bit. No one is talking about taking other furloughees at random--just pilots along with their airplanes. This plan might actually set a good precedent that could protect your own seniority one day.

Haven't ASA and Comair had ample opportunity to pursue a merger long before now? What makes a merger more appealing just because there are unsubstantiated rumors that management might do something with Comair?

 

[JustaNumber]

I doubt it would be feasable to get management to agree to take Comair pilots while honoring their longevity; it would cost a fortune in negotiating capital that I would not be willing to spend. It would cost the company almost no money, on the other hand, to hire Comair pilots on at first year pay, but with full seniority for bidding purposes. It would actually be the most advantageous thing ever for them--they could get captains with 25 years of experience for about $60k/year. This would lower ASA's labor costs and allow us a comptitive advantage against other regionals. For the Comair pilot who watched his airline get dissolved and is facing the unemployment line, a $60k/yr job with advancement possibilities (especially in this economy) would seem pretty good compared to the alternatives. For the ASA pilots, as I said in my previous post, it would have little to no effect on their career advancement (athough there would be an additional airplane to eventually sit in when the old Comair captains retire soon), but it would be an investment in precedent to possibly protect one's own seniority and job in the future. That, and it seems like it would be the right thing to do.

So this idea would be good for the company, good for the Comair pilots, and in the long run, good for the ASA pilots. I think it's a very innovative idea, Joe.

 

[CFI2766]

I think the idea is to only implement this if we receive airplanes from Comair. If this plan was implemented, it would need to have very strict allowances for x number of Comair pilots for every x number of Comair airplanes. In essence it would be ASA pilots forgoing a seniority advancement windfall just because DCI shuffles airplanes. I need to think about it some more, but I think I'm actually okay with this. It would in essence be a merger with Comair--junior ASA FOs would see new airplanes join the company, along with the pilots who originally flew them, and it would not affect them positively or negatively one bit. No one is talking about taking other furloughees at random--just pilots along with their airplanes. This plan might actually set a good precedent that could protect your own seniority one day.

At the risk of picking up this metaphorical grenade, I saw nothing in Joe's post that even obliquely suggested anything about Comair A/C coming to ASA. The exact opposite was what I read from his post; Comair pilots coming to the ASA seniority list with their OH DOH to be used for bidding purposes at ASA in the event of the demise of Comair.

Which situation were you calling for, Joe?

If there are Comair A/C to come to ASA as part of a Fragmentation of Comair assets or as a function of ASA Succeeding Comair management of those assets, then I would fully support the Comair pilots coming over to the ASA list IAW both collective bargaining agreements and ALPA Merger policy. Stated differently, I am opposed to ASA pilots realizing a seniority windfall because of the demise of Comair, or anyone else. This clearly does set a bad precedent for our collective futures.

 

[CFI2766]

I doubt it would be feasable to get management to agree to take Comair pilots while honoring their longevity; it would cost a fortune in negotiating capital that I would not be willing to spend. It would cost the company almost no money, on the other hand, to hire Comair pilots on at first year pay, but with full seniority for bidding purposes. It would actually be the most advantageous thing ever for them--they could get captains with 25 years of experience for about $60k/year. This would lower ASA's labor costs and allow us a comptitive advantage against other regionals. For the Comair pilot who watched his airline get dissolved and is facing the unemployment line, a $60k/yr job with advancement possibilities (especially in this economy) would seem pretty good compared to the alternatives. For the ASA pilots, as I said in my previous post, it would have little to no effect on their career advancement (athough there would be an additional airplane to eventually sit in when the old Comair captains retire soon), but it would be an investment in precedent to possibly protect one's own seniority and job in the future. That, and it seems like it would be the right thing to do.

So this idea would be good for the company, good for the Comair pilots, and in the long run, good for the ASA pilots. I think it's a very innovative idea, Joe.

Again, to consider this proposal accurately, let's restate some important points:

1. Nowhere in Joe's post did he suggest anything about aircraft coming over from Comair, or anyone else.

2. The vast majority of Comair's fleet are 200s, an aircraft that Delta has made clear that it wants to substantially reduce, or even eliminate.

3. The average seniority of a Comair pilot is significantly greater than the ASA pilot.

Maybe I'm missing it here, but how is this idea good for the ASA Captain who just upgraded, or worse, just got the fourth stripe back?

How is this idea a good idea for the ASA FO who is just about to upgrade?

How is this a good idea for the ASA FO just back from furlough?

How would this not be a seniority windfall for the Comair pilot?


You state that it would cost the Company almost no money...to hire Comair pilots at first year pay, but with DOH for bidding purposes. This would cost every FO at ASA a significant amount of money in delayed upgrade under Joe's proposal.

Respectfully, your assertion that this would have little or no effect on career advancement is tenuous, at very best.

 

[CFI2766]

Additional issue: Comair has 300ish on furlough, while ASA has zero. How would the guys on furlough at Comair be handled? In a scenario where they would be granted DOH bidding at ASA, without any additional A/C growth at ASA, wouldn't they then push 300ish ASA pilots out the door?

 

[Midge]

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

There is so much wrong with the above post, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[JustaNumber]

Again, to consider this proposal accurately, let's restate some important points:

1. Nowhere in Joe's post did he suggest anything about aircraft coming over from Comair, or anyone else.

2. The vast majority of Comair's fleet are 200s, an aircraft that Delta has made clear that it wants to substantially reduce, or even eliminate.

3. The average seniority of a Comair pilot is significantly greater than the ASA pilot.

Maybe I'm missing it here, but how is this idea good for the ASA Captain who just upgraded, or worse, just got the fourth stripe back?

How is this idea a good idea for the ASA FO who is just about to upgrade?

How is this a good idea for the ASA FO just back from furlough?

How would this not be a seniority windfall for the Comair pilot?


You state that it would cost the Company almost no money...to hire Comair pilots at first year pay, but with DOH for bidding purposes. This would cost every FO at ASA a significant amount of money in delayed upgrade under Joe's proposal.

Respectfully, your assertion that this would have little or no effect on career advancement is tenuous, at very best.

Additional issue: Comair has 300ish on furlough, while ASA has zero. How would the guys on furlough at Comair be handled? In a scenario where they would be granted DOH bidding at ASA, without any additional A/C growth at ASA, wouldn't they then push 300ish ASA pilots out the door?

Thanks for the respectful reply--this issue is obviously extremely contentious, but I'm willing to look at all sides to possibly improve the instability of this career.

The way I see it, for an FO about to upgrade or just off furlough, they would see a position bid come out for 5 new captain spots for each Comair airplane we got, but they would not be able to hold those slots. It would be identical to us having never received those airplanes. Obviously it starts getting complicated when reshuffling happens with base openings and closings and associated displacements, but I'm trying to look at the big picture to see how this might benefit us as a whole.

As for Comair furloughees, they wouldn't come over unless they brought an airplane with them, so our recently returned furloughees would not be affected. What the proposal here does is basically effect a virtual merger of two airlines for pilot career purposes, without ASA having to officially call it a merger or have high costs associated with a formal merger. I am willing to look at all the pitfalls, though.

 

[CFI2766]

Thanks for the respectful reply--this issue is obviously extremely contentious, but I'm willing to look at all sides to possibly improve the instability of this career.

Agree.

The way I see it, for an FO about to upgrade or just off furlough, they would see a position bid come out for 5 new captain spots for each Comair airplane we got, but they would not be able to hold those slots. It would be identical to us having never received those airplanes. Obviously it starts getting complicated when reshuffling happens with base openings and closings and associated displacements, but I'm trying to look at the big picture to see how this might benefit us as a whole.

Agree for Captains, but what about FOs?

As for Comair furloughees, they wouldn't come over unless they brought an airplane with them, so our recently returned furloughees would not be affected. What the proposal here does is basically effect a virtual merger of two airlines for pilot career purposes, without ASA having to officially call it a merger or have high costs associated with a formal merger. I am willing to look at all the pitfalls, though.

Agree.


I too am open to any realistic options to increase the dihedral of this career. Let's be fair, however. Using the exact same logic that you have presented, a junior FO at ASA could make a proposal at the next LEC meeting (toothless, I know) to invert the current seniority list for all purposes. This too would save the company money, would it not?

The seniority system, flawed and unjust as it is, is probably the best system out there to protect the interests of the entire pilot group in the face of corporate interests.

Again, I am open to looking for other options as well as the pitfalls of those options, but after nearly 100 years of commercial aviation, no other viable ideas have presented themselves.

 

[CFIT]

I support it the concept.

Rez do you, put aside your steadfast ALPO support and take a stand, be a pilot and not an ALPO cheerleader?

Rez, PCL, where do you stand?

 

[sayrejm]

Did anyone mention what would happen should the number of aircraft subsequently become reduced do to unforeseen market conditions?

 

[PCL_128]

Rez, PCL, where do you stand?

As Rez said earlier, let's see the resolution. I can't comment on something I haven't seen. The concept that JoeM has described has many problems that I can see, however. Unless he can address them, then I can't see how his resolution would work. But I'm open to seeing it before condemning it.

 

[Beaver79]

Email address has been established:

[email protected]

This IS NOT a decertification effort. I am looking for people to support LEC resolutions to give CMR pilots preferential hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH.

Preferential hiring with who??

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If regional airlines increase(d) their pay, the benefits of outsourcing would cease to exist. Thus the concept of cross collateralizing one pilot's pay with another pilot's labor would fail if the regional pilots got scope over outsourced flying and increased their pay. So ALPA used it's position as exclusive bargaining Agent to block regional carriers from binding their parent companies (as ASA and Comair both tried to do). .

No....

When the outsourcing gets expensive... they get outsourced.

For example..

CAL outsourced to XJT, then XJT got expensive and was outsourced to Colgan...

UAL and DAL are just as bad or worse...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Did anyone mention what would happen should the number of aircraft subsequently become reduced do to unforeseen market conditions?

Good question James. My guess, the same thing that just happened last year. You, and your classmates would be out of a job again. Remember, those Comair pilots would be super senior (20+ years probably) and wouldn't have to worry about furlough.

 

[wms]

ASA's attention is going to be occupied with it's present merger for the next 18-24 months. Nothing else big is going to happen here. Expect the next big announcement to come from SKYW. And with their fear of unions it will only include planes and facilities.

 

[outtahere]

I support this 110%! A couple of years ago when DAL tried to get rid of Mesa and XJT was ramping up their flying with DAL as a new DCI carrier, I had a conversation with our MEC chairman and he was in total agreement that if XJT got any of their aircraft we would try to convince management to take a commensurate amount of pilots onto the XJT list with seniority in return for basically having a turnkey operation. This is the whole thrust of the ALPA Fee For Departure Task Force - career progression protection.

So, Nevets is a hypocrite! You don't want DOH with the ASA merger, but you want it with Comair? You're a dork.

 

[tiffanytaylor]

ASA's attention is going to be occupied with it's present merger for the next 18-24 months. Nothing else big is going to happen here. Expect the next big announcement to come from SKYW. And with their fear of unions it will only include planes and facilities.

I suspect SKYW is taking some Comair planes but not pilots or f/as.