ALPA....A union or not? Time to decide!

[BHopper88]

What about if you subtract Comair and add Midwest pilots? What about all the aloha pilots? Really don't know how it would be possible to implement and not divide pilot groups even more. I am sure some would support the idea but as long as they are hired somewhere else and/or don't effect their own seniority.

 

[Nevets]

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

I support this 110%! A couple of years ago when DAL tried to get rid of Mesa and XJT was ramping up their flying with DAL as a new DCI carrier, I had a conversation with our MEC chairman and he was in total agreement that if XJT got any of their aircraft we would try to convince management to take a commensurate amount of pilots onto the XJT list with seniority in return for basically having a turnkey operation. This is the whole thrust of the ALPA Fee For Departure Task Force - career progression protection.

 

[glasspilot]

During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

Whoa there big feller!

I was at ACA at the time and we expressly refused struck work. It was huge at the time and we were unified behind it. Now after all that you're just gonna come on here and say it was all for nothing?

Sorry, some of us are still around and can call BS!

 

[Ad Lib]

I don't think ASA's MEC, or management, will act on a "rumor." It seems like a lot of rumors are going around Cincinnati that no one else is correlating in other bases.

It makes more sense for Delta to continue to operate Comair status quo (or maybe even grow) Comair is the only DCI carrier that Delta actually controls, which makes them sort of indispensable when Delta needs the flexibility to adjust its network on short notice. Comair is a Delta asset, the value & performance of that asset contributes to the bottom line.

As for one group (ASA) offering another group DOH for bidding, that would be unprecedented. Not against the idea, but your First Officers might not feel as magnanimous as you do. If it results in a large number of additional training events, you can expect your management to want something in exchange. (although ideally, they would run this as a very short course since the operation and equipment are substantially similar)

ALPA needs to work on is the reset of longevity that happens as management shifts aircraft the same brand. Protecting longevity is probably more important overall in removing management's incentive to outsource flying to the alter ego flavor of the day. A resolution to tackle that problem would likely pass by acclimation without the push back from your own pilots who would be giving up an upgrade. It would also make it much less likely that pilots would suffer career disruptions which result from managements' outsourcing / acquisition schemes.

 

[CX880]

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

Why? What makes Comair pilots so special that they be given priority? Retribution?? Comair was a company that played into the union hype of trying to become the industry leader. They soon found out that you can't really be an industry leader when you've got 10 other regionals trying to cut your throat. Now you're blaming ALPA for your problems. How are you going to compete with the likes of Skywest or ASA when they're buying up flying? Get concessions and you too might get more CRJ-9s. You can't blame ALPA for that, it's the regional industry and it certainly doesn't owe you anything for playing the game.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Doooooooosh!

 

[crj567]

Interesting new angle on the RJDC, Joe...

By extension, you would have to give everyone at every carrier DOH-exactly what the RJDC was after. A single national list. Great idea in concept, but it will never happen. Every other airline will leave ALPA before they let all these people on their lists.

-Now is not the time to make more enemies at mainline. Another attempted seniority grab for anyone would lend far more ammo to the haters at all the majors. And-yes, this is what the core of the RJDC was really all about-it was the elephant in the room.

-Let's not go through this crap all over again-we have had our teeth kicked in for too long. Comair is a lost cause. They didn't look out for anyone else when times were good (remember what they did to get all those shiny new 70s a few years back?) How many DAL furloughees worked there?

-Why the hell should I fall on my sword for Comair? If you want to pick a good pilot group to stand up and fight for-they are not the one. They have made way too many enemies through the years. Enemies within our union, DALs union, and DALs mgmt. Hell-I can't think of many enemies they haven't made in the last decade.

-Just let the RJDC go away, Joe. Its far past time.

 

[CFI2766]

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

What is your objective here?

What are you looking to accomplish?

What is in the zone amongst our peers with regard to reasonableness on this idea?

What would your response be when you are asked about how your own personal seniority factored into this decision?

What would your response be when asked about your proposal by an ASA FO just coming back off of furlough?

I could support their CMH DOH for longevity purposes, but I don't see how our membership could support guys coming to our list with other carriers DOH for bidding purposes. If we collectively decided to do that, why stop at CMH? Why not have a furloughed Delta guy bump everyone, including the senior lifers who intend to stay at ASA for the duration, on the ASA list down a spot? (Do we really just want to keep a seat warm for someone else?) Why not have a furloughed CAL/UAL guy do the same thing? How about a furloughed Eastern guy? Braniff? TWA? Pan-Am?

What is the value of seniority to a pilot? Stated differently, we all agree that there is significant value to seniority, but what dollar amount could be placed on seniority for an individual pilot? Since you are asking a junior pilot at ASA to give up a significant amount, or take a take a significant concession which would be more than what was asked of a senior pilot at ASA with this proposal, what would you propose to make that situation fair for the junior ASA pilot?

How would this proposal fairly represent the junior pilots at ASA?

Are you sure that this isn't simply a decertification effort in disguise?

 

[JustaNumber]

Why not have a furloughed CAL/UAL guy do the same thing? How about a furloughed Eastern guy? Braniff? TWA? Pan-Am?

I think the idea is to only implement this if we receive airplanes from Comair. If this plan was implemented, it would need to have very strict allowances for x number of Comair pilots for every x number of Comair airplanes. In essence it would be ASA pilots forgoing a seniority advancement windfall just because DCI shuffles airplanes. I need to think about it some more, but I think I'm actually okay with this. It would in essence be a merger with Comair--junior ASA FOs would see new airplanes join the company, along with the pilots who originally flew them, and it would not affect them positively or negatively one bit. No one is talking about taking other furloughees at random--just pilots along with their airplanes. This plan might actually set a good precedent that could protect your own seniority one day.

 

[Ad Lib]

Interesting new angle on the RJDC, Joe...

By extension, you would have to give everyone at every carrier DOH-exactly what the RJDC was after.

Joe's unwritten resolution, if passed, would only be advisory to his Local Counsil, in no way bind his Reps, or his Master Counsil. Since even he has not bothered to post a proposed resolution, that is one heck of an extension you are assuming.

Just as you are assuming the RJDC was about "every one at every carrier having DOH." You are wrong. The RJDC was about ALPA's action to block scope needed by the Regional airlines to restrict the outsourcing of regional flying.

ALPA's outsourcing plan at major carriers was predicated on the concept that regional airlines would perform the work for lower compensation. Mainline pilots partnered with management to share the benefits of this outsourcing arrangement.

If regional airlines increase(d) their pay, the benefits of outsourcing would cease to exist. Thus the concept of cross collateralizing one pilot's pay with another pilot's labor would fail if the regional pilots got scope over outsourced flying and increased their pay. So ALPA used it's position as exclusive bargaining Agent to block regional carriers from binding their parent companies (as ASA and Comair both tried to do).

At it's core, the RJDC's action was over scope, not seniority.

As the RJDC faded into history, note that mainline pilots have still outsourced flying, outsourcing larger airplanes and more of them. The mainline pilots blamed the RJDC to unify their pilots against a common enemy, but the truth was (and is) that the mainline pilots were the only ALPA members at the table when their flying was outsourced and mainline pilots ratified those agreements. The RJDC had no effect on outsourcing ... it just hoped to enable regional MEC's to have their own scope which bound outsourced flying at the source.

The act of a union partnering with management to outsource work to benefit preferred members is a poison to the concept of collective bargaining. Union after union has failed as a result of these policies. Joe is right to question the union credentials of anyone who supports these outsourcing schemes. Not that Joe's big on trying to fix ALPA. He's simply knows where the cracks are and exploits them to get folks on the web board upset.

He knows his own Local would never even buy off on his proposal to extend DOH bidding to Comair pilots, so he can toss the concept out there like a grenade and see who jumps on it.

Apparently you and I jumped... .