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ALPA "‘Pay to Play’ Costs Too Much"

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Juan_Tugo said:
It's not about what they've done for me. My point is this: if you don't like the RJDC, take the energy you spend bashing them and use it to reform your union.
I could say the same to you about ALPA. How many lec/mec meetings have you shown up to to voice your concern??

If the lawsuit didn't have merit the RJDC wouldn't be in a position to compel the production of the documents they're seeking. It does, they are, and ALPA's stonewalling speaks volumes about what those documents will reveal. Once you cut through all the specious rhetoric about Comair pilots wanting to move directly into the left seat of a widebody, all that's left is a simple DFR complaint that ALPA knows with absolute certainty that it has a tremendous amount of exposure to.

Juan: The lawsuit doesn not have merit! The rjdc's seeking of documents is their way of keeping this pathetic lawsuit alive! How many of the rjdc's complaints were thrown out of court. In all seriousness, I agree with their DFR complaint! That is the only thing they're holding on to, they're gasping for air at every corner!

I don't technically have a dog in this fight, but I contribute to the RJDC because I believe that an effective pilot union is critical to the future of our industry, and I believe that ALPA in its current iteration has clearly lost its way. I also believe that ALPA's internal mechanisms have been co-opted by narrow interests and have broken down to the point that an environment where meaningful reform can be generated from within simply does not nor cannot exist. There's an amply documented record of the RJDC's forbears' fruitless attempts to effect change within the constraints of ALPA's political process.
That's where you're wrong...You DO have a dog in this fight. Especially if you contribute to Ford and company's pathetic fight. One thing you have to reaize about alpa, is that is an organization, not a union. Second, alpa is what you make of it. It is an organization of DIFFERENT mec's working in the interest of their OWN membership.. These different mec's are not working together, but rather work for different airlines who are in deep competition for each other and who's interest conflict with each other.

An issue like DW's compensation is just a red herring. What really matters is that once-upon-a-time, ALPA decided that a group of second-class citizens in its ranks subject to a virtual B-scale was an acceptable state of affairs. Management was on that one like a ravenous dog on a T-bone, and mainline pilots grateful to have "captured" 100 seat flying at $92/hr. (in 2005 dollars, no less) was an entirely predictable consequence.
I can't argue with you there, you are right on! One thing is certain, pilots are their own worst enemy. IF NWA strikes tomorrow, their HQ will be lined with pilots lined up around the corner waiting to cross the picket line to fly a 744 for 1/8 pay!

The distinction between the haves and have-nots in our industry has always been an artificial one. In the end, we're all just pilots. We could have all been "haves," but thanks to ALPA's obsession with maintaining the illusion of mainline exclusivity, we're all on our way to being "have-nots."
In a sense, I am not disagreeing with you. I urge you to get involved with your union leadership. Its realy easy to bitch about it on an internet board, and in the cockpit while flying, but I can guarentee you that less than 1/10 of the pilots bitching about their working conditions have never even attended an lec/mec meeting or have even talked with their leadership
take care:
737
 
I think ALPA should use some of our dues to start a campaign to sell the kids on different careers......explain to them that its a better direction to become a dentist or an accountant or somethin. Then they will be able to afford to fly on their own time...
 
BluDevAv8r said:
It is. It is tied to the highest 3 pay rates within ALPA. As concessionary contracts have been bargained, his pay has gone down accordingly.

-Neal

Neal, that is not true. As I said in a previous post, the formula was changed during the 2002 BOD in order to prevent him from taking a paycut. His pay did not go down, in fact it went up. The formula was changed from the highest 6 ALPA carriers to the highest 3 carriers. DAL, NWA, and FDX hadn't taken any concessions prior to the 2002 BOD. Why was the formula changed? Defend this outrageous pay if you want, but don't give out false information.
 
737 Pylt said:
I could say the same to you about ALPA. How many lec/mec meetings have you shown up to to voice your concern??
I'm gonna have to go with a big fat zero on that one. I said reform your union. I've got my hands full with my own.
Juan: The lawsuit doesn not have merit! The rjdc's seeking of documents is their way of keeping this pathetic lawsuit alive! How many of the rjdc's complaints were thrown out of court. In all seriousness, I agree with their DFR complaint! That is the only thing they're holding on to, they're gasping for air at every corner!
Everything that was thrown out was implicated by the DFR complaint. There's no need to litigate those issues separately.
That's where you're wrong...You DO have a dog in this fight. Especially if you contribute to Ford and company's pathetic fight.
You're darn right I do. I'm not real happy about having the ALPA contracts that resulted from the alter-ego debacle waved in my face as I work to preserve my standard of living.
One thing you have to reaize about alpa, is that is an organization, not a union.
I hope that assertion isn't going to be the cornerstone of ALPA's defense.
 
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JoeMerchant said:
Neal, that is not true. As I said in a previous post, the formula was changed during the 2002 BOD in order to prevent him from taking a paycut. His pay did not go down, in fact it went up. The formula was changed from the highest 6 ALPA carriers to the highest 3 carriers. DAL, NWA, and FDX hadn't taken any concessions prior to the 2002 BOD. Why was the formula changed? Defend this outrageous pay if you want, but don't give out false information.
.

Joe.... quit trying to spin the democratic process.....

Fact is, the 2002 and 2004 BOD happened and you don't like the outcome. Now, you are trying to spin it as the membership is getting screwed.... When in fact the apathetic membership choose not to engage the process....

Now, I challenge you to correct this wrong pay formula and make it fair for the membership at the 2006 BOD. You got eight months....

Got a better way than democracy? Let's hear it....
 
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Rez O. Lewshun said:
.

Joe.... quit trying to spin the democratic process.....

Fact is, the 2002 and 2004 BOD happened and you don't like the outcome. Now, you are trying to spin it as the membership is getting screwed.... When in fact the apathetic membership choose not to engage the process....

Now, I challenge you to correct this wrong pay formula and make it fair for the membership at the 2006 BOD. You got eight months....

Got a better way than democracy? Let's hear it....

Democracy means that a critical mass of naked self-interest will have its way-not a great model for a labor union founded on the "what hurts us one, hurts us all" principle. If ALPA is going to make itself relevant again it needs to become more like a republic and less like a representative democracy. That's going to require leadership. Duane Woerth has proven beyond the hint of a shadow of a doubt that he is not a leader, but merely someone who has effectively pandered to the fears and prejudices of his political base.

They thought they were just screwing the "regional" pilots only to discover, far too late, that they were just screwing "pilots," and hence themselves.
 
Juan_Tugo said:
Democracy means that a critical mass of naked self-interest will have its way-not a great model for a labor union founded on the "what hurts us one, hurts us all" principle. If ALPA is going to make itself relevant again it needs to become more like a republic and less like a representative democracy. That's going to require leadership. Duane Woerth has proven beyond the hint of a shadow of a doubt that he is not a leader, but merely someone who has effectively pandered to the fears and prejudices of his political base.

They thought they were just screwing the "regional" pilots only to discover, far too late, that they were just screwing "pilots," and hence themselves.

Juan,

This is how our politics work in the US. It might not be a perfect system, and I am sure a better one will come along... However, those who can gain support are the ones who will favor the policy.

If you are to call more effective leadership from ALPA's leaders....

Then you must also call for more effective leadership and follwership from the rank and file....

It is quite clear that a majority of the ALPA members do not know much about how their group functions. They don't particpate in elections and meetings. When you point a finger at someone there are three pointing back at you...

You are calling for a change but really, it is not the program rather the users. They haven't taken the time to learn the programming language and then cry the system is broken.

How about controlling what you can.... Anti ALPA and ALPA bashing is really about control or losing it. As airline pilots we are used to being in control. For the past five years we have been out of control. We need to rationale this..somehow. Naturally we look to others to blame.

If we, as a membership, want more control, the first agenda item is control your education and information. Control your particiaption. Learn how to be an effective user of the program....

After that... and only then can you call for a re-writing of the program or a better version.

Finally, if/when the good times come back and our growth and descretionary income increases we can all slip back into the comfort of our apthay...

p.s Notice the Fedex and UPS guys aren't complaining. The last time a FedEx guy complained was about how heavy is flightbag was due to Jepps. He got a relativity check....
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Juan,


If you are to call more effective leadership from ALPA's leaders....

Then you must also call for more effective leadership and follwership from the rank and file....

It is quite clear that a majority of the ALPA members do not know much about how their group functions. They don't particpate in elections and meetings. When you point a finger at someone there are three pointing back at you...



I agree with everything you've said; it's just a shame it's coming from you on a recreational bulletin board instead of from ALPA's "leadership" in a forum where it might make a difference.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Juan,

This is how our politics work in the US. It might not be a perfect system, and I am sure a better one will come along... However, those who can gain support are the ones who will favor the policy.

Rez, you mention "democracy" and "this is how politics work the US. 2 points before we can go on.

1. You realize that neither the US govt. nor ALPA are "democracies". You are an intelligent person, even if I don't agree with you. To say either the US or ALPA are "democracies" is incorrect.

2. Just because "this is how politics work", doesn't mean it is right or good. There was a time when "politics" said it was OK to own slaves. Even today, there are healthy debates about the limits and wisdom of our current govt. Do you not believe in "questioning authority"?
 
BluDevAv8r said:
It is. It is tied to the highest 3 pay rates within ALPA. As concessionary contracts have been bargained, his pay has gone down accordingly.

-Neal

Neal, you are avoiding this issue. Being appointed to a National committee got your tongue? His pay hasn't gone down has it? His pay was tied to the highest 6 ALPA carriers prior to the 2002 BOD, but was changed to the highest 3 ALPA carriers, wasn't it? Your in Herndon now, research it and get back to us - if you have time with all the important work you are doing with the "fee for departure task farce".
 
JoeMerchant said:
Rez, you mention "democracy" and "this is how politics work the US. 2 points before we can go on.

1. You realize that neither the US govt. nor ALPA are "democracies". You are an intelligent person, even if I don't agree with you. To say either the US or ALPA are "democracies" is incorrect.

2. Just because "this is how politics work", doesn't mean it is right or good. There was a time when "politics" said it was OK to own slaves. Even today, there are healthy debates about the limits and wisdom of our current govt. Do you not believe in "questioning authority"?

All right Joe.... I'll play along.

Respones...

1. First, you have to tell me what you think they are, if they are not democracies. Second, call it whatever you want. The gov'ts within the 50 states including the Fed, and ALPA have all of thier rules, polices and procedures in print. Thus one can get informed and educated on how the game is played and engage themsleves in play with the desire to win. You simply, are out performed on the gridiron. And because you can't win the game, you call BS on the game. The players with integrity either get better and train harder or they realize they will not be champions and go find something else they like to do that makes them happy.

2. Your grandpa never told you life wasn't fair. Re-read #1.


The 2006 BOD is approaching. If you are to right size ALPA salaries, you have a lot of work to do.

Finally, if there is no change in ALPA salaries at the 2006 BOD will you stand down and quit distracting Air Line Pilots form the real threats to our Profession:

Foreign Ownership
Terrorism
Pension Loss
Flight Time/Duty Time
Flight Safety
Career Security
The BK process
Age 60
Concessionay Attacks

Aren't these issues more important that one guys salary, which could be argued as accpetable? In addition, this salary stood thru two BODs. This salary was drafted and approved by a committee of our peers. Are they wrong and flightinfo right? If the 2006 BOD changes the salary, then that is cool...the delegates got together and worked it out. I support that. But if they don't then that is six years of opprotunity to right size. When is it going to be enough for you? Now that I have distacted you, let's re focus...

Our Profession, Our Issues:

Foreign Ownership
Terrorism
Pension Loss
Flight Time/Duty Time
Flight Safety
Career Security
The BK process
Age 60
Concessionay Attacks
 
JoeMerchant said:
Neal, you are avoiding this issue. Being appointed to a National committee got your tongue? His pay hasn't gone down has it? His pay was tied to the highest 6 ALPA carriers prior to the 2002 BOD, but was changed to the highest 3 ALPA carriers, wasn't it? Your in Herndon now, research it and get back to us - if you have time with all the important work you are doing with the "fee for departure task farce".

Avoiding the issue? Maybe...Or a more probable and likely scenario is that...maybe...just maybe...I've had other more pressing issues in both my personal and professional life than coming on here to defend DW and his pay package (which was approved by the entire 2002 BOD, including your MEC mind you).

And for the record, I was not in Herndon this past week. I was, however, in DC last week for 2 days for the first organizational meeting of the FFD Task Force. That Task Force is comprised of people who care very much about stopping the race to the bottom and pushing this industry back in the right direction. You can choose to throw stones from the crowd (or from your LEC S/T spot) or you can get behind this group and support it. It is your choice of course.

And this week I have been flying and also doing work for my own MEC. So I apologize I haven't taken the time to research this oh so important issue of yours. Your position as the ASA ATL LEC S/T affords you the same access to ALPA resources that I have by the way.

But DW's salary package was decided by the BOD back in 2002, when he was last elected. From what I have been told it is based off of the highest 3 paying contracts in ALPA. I never once made a claim to know what it was prior to 2002. If you have a beef with his salary and benefits package, take it up with your MEC and have them deal with it at the upcoming BOD (or through the EB even sooner). That is the ALPA process as you well know.

Your cynical sarcasm and not-so-subtle comments towards me are duly noted. You certainly seem like you are an angry bitter man full of venom and hatred. For that, I am sorry. You can choose to remain this way and complain on here or you can attempt to effect change through the appropriate process and procedure. Good luck in whatever path you choose.

-Neal
 
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In U.S. airline fights, pilots often the last workers standing

Source: Comtex News Network (Associated Press Worldstream)

Airlines are a big union industry, and the big dog in every airline union fight is the pilots. So it's not surprising that they ended up as the last holdouts in the pay-cut negotiations at Northwest and Delta airlines.

The biggest pilot union, the Air Line Pilots Association, has a reputation for being a tough negotiator, but the list of its largest members reads like a who's-who of recent airline bankruptcies _ US Airways Group Inc., UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp.

On Friday, Northwest and its pilots reached a pay-cut deal. Delta's request to throw out its pilot contract was headed for a mediator.

To stay alive, bankrupt airlines have leaned _ hard _ on employees for pay cuts and more flexible work rules. Pilots, who can make $150,000 (?124,800) or more, have been a prime target, putting ALPA in one of its toughest fights since its founding in 1931.

ALPA isn't showing any signs of backing away from the fight. President Duane Woerth rallied Northwest pilots in Minneapolis on Feb. 23, telling them that the airline industry is poised for better times and that they'll be a part of it.

Mechanics and flight attendants generally haven't been able to shut airlines down with strikes. Pilots can. And they know it.

"They are hard and sophisticated negotiators," said Ben Hirst, who was Northwest's vice president for labor relations during a round of concessions in 1993.

"The difficulty in negotiating with them is, if they believe their position is right, they really will take it to the mat," Hirst said. "There's a lot of testosterone."

ALPA can throw a phalanx of lawyers, analysts and actuaries at high-stakes negotiations like the ones last week with Delta and Northwest airlines.

The pilots union has a history "of looking at the airline from an economic standpoint, from an investment standpoint, of really trying to understand the business they're negotiating with," Hirst said.

Woerth said several full-time staffers were working with Northwest union negotiators in New York, and about 60 staffers worked full-time on Northwest talks at ALPA headquarters, with plans to shift their attention to Delta talks next.

But all those union experts can't force airlines to make money. Older airlines (the ones started before government deregulation in the late 1970s) have been in deep trouble in recent years, pummeled by a punishing mix of terrorism fears, rising fuel prices, and discount carriers who grab lucrative routes and often pay their employees less.

The only time that was nearly as bad for ALPA was when Continental broke a pilots' strike in 1983, said George Hopkins, a recently retired airline labor historian at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Illinois.

"But I think now is worse. At least there was a semblance of congressional support for labor unions in the 1980s," he said.

And he said pilots face a danger at least as bad as pay cuts now _ slashed pensions. Federal rules force pilots to retire at age 60, before they're eligible for Social Security or Medicare. So their pension is crucial to their retirement, but those payments are slashed when bankrupt carriers slough off their pensions on the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

While ALPA is the largest pilots' union, it isn't dominant. Pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines _ the United States' largest _ and Southwest Airlines Co. each have their own unions. And many of the newer discount carriers are not ALPA-represented.

"ALPA has been slowly eroding in overall power," said Alan Bender, who teaches airline labor relations at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. And a loosening of rules barring foreign airlines from flying within the U.S. could hand more pilot jobs to non-ALPA pilots, he said.

Hopkins, the historian, said ALPA hasn't had a friend in politics since Republicans took over Congress in 1994, and unions generally have been representing a shrinking share of the work force.

"I have a good deal of respect for Woerth. He's a keen student of the history of his union and his profession," Hopkins said.

"He understands where the industry has been, and where it's at right now. But I don't think anybody knows where it's going."
 

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