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Allegiant Post 3Q Profit!!!

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Ameriagle

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Posts
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LAS VEGAS, Oct 21, 2008 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- Allegiant Travel Company (Nasdaq: ALGT), parent company of Allegiant Air and Allegiant Vacations, today reported the following third quarter results and comparisons to prior year equivalents:
Unaudited 3Q08 3Q07 Change Total operating revenue (millions) $116.9 $86.3 35.4% Operating income (millions) $8.1 $9.5 (14.9)% Operating margin 6.9% 11.1% -4.2pp Net income (millions) $4.9 $7.0 (30.3)% Diluted earnings per share $0.24 $0.34 (29.4)% Scheduled Service: Average fare - scheduled service $86.32 $83.02 4.0% Average fare - ancillary 32.28 21.31 51.5% Average fare - total $118.60 $104.33 13.7% Total revenue per ASM (cents) 12.75 9.59 33.0% Average stage length (miles) 856 920 (7.0)% Total System*: Operating expense per ASM (CASM) (cents) 11.49 8.41 36.6% CASM, excluding fuel (cents) 5.49 4.40 24.8% Average stage length (miles) 815 898 (9.2)% * Total system includes scheduled service, fixed fee contract and non-revenue flying"We are very proud of our third quarter financial performance," stated Maurice J. Gallagher, Jr., CEO and President of Allegiant Travel Company. "The efforts of our excellent employees enabled us to achieve a great deal in the third quarter. We almost doubled profits sequentially, despite our average fuel price being largely unchanged from the second quarter and in what is seasonally our weakest time of the year. The steps we have taken to adapt to record high fuel prices, namely reducing our long haul flying, trimming capacity in select markets and focusing on increased load factors, are clearly paying off. Capacity reductions allowed us to increase unit revenues substantially -- third quarter scheduled service total RASM increased 33% to 12.75 cents compared to the prior year. All our scheduled service revenue drivers improved versus the prior year: ancillary revenue per passenger was up $11 to over $32, average airfare was up $3 to $86 (despite a 7% decline in average stage length) and passengers per flight increased 10% from 125 to 137, increasing load factor to an industry leading 93.8%."
Gallagher continued, "Our strong balance sheet and solid cash position provide a great deal of flexibility in today's financial environment. Looking forward, we have acquired and paid for much of our 2009 growth with our purchase for cash of six aircraft earlier this year which will take us to 43 operating aircraft by the end of 2009. Additionally, our third quarter aircraft utilization was only five block hours per day versus six hours in the prior year due to our capacity management related to higher fuel prices. The recent drop in fuel makes the economics of higher utilization more plausible. Increasing our fleet utilization in the coming year could drive additional growth with minimal investment. Regardless, the recent moderation in the price of oil, should it continue, bodes well for the remainder of 2008 and 2009."
Andrew C. Levy, CFO & Managing Director - Planning, stated, "Our aggressive capacity management has enabled us to remain profitable these past several quarters in a very challenging fuel environment. Due to record high fuel prices this past summer, we designed a fourth quarter schedule with reductions in off-peak capacity which we believe will result in a significant increase in scheduled total RASM. Moreover, our fuel leverage outweighs any other profitability driver in our business and, therefore, we expect record results in the fourth quarter if fuel prices remain near current levels.
"Our costs increased across the board on a unit basis, mainly due to a combination of lower aircraft utilization and a shorter average stage length. Maintenance and repairs had the largest percentage increase year-over-year due to more airframe heavy maintenance events, more engine maintenance events, and higher repair expense.
"Our balance sheet and liquidity remain strong. We ended the quarter with $138.6 million in unrestricted cash and short-term investments, down from $153.8 million at the end of the second quarter. The decline is due principally to the purchase of $8.4 million for aircraft, engines, parts and aircraft leasehold improvements."
Network Summary* September 30, 2008 September 30, 2007 Major leisure destinations 5 3 Other leisure destinations 4 2 Small cities served 54 51 Total cities served 63 56 Routes to Las Vegas 38 42 Routes to Orlando 26 24 Routes to Tampa Bay/St. Petersburg 15 14 Routes to Phoenix-Mesa 9 0 Routes to Ft. Lauderdale 6 0 Other routes 4 2 Total routes 98 82 * includes cities served seasonallyDuring the third quarter, Allegiant Air initiated service on the following four Las Vegas routes: Appleton, WI (replacing Green Bay, WI), Casper, WY, Grand Forks, ND and Grand Island, NE (replacing Lincoln, NE). We have also announced 18 more routes to start in the fourth quarter (two to Las Vegas, six to Phoenix-Mesa and five each to Orlando-Sanford and St. Petersburg). These new routes include service to five small cities new to the Allegiant network: Bozeman, MT, Elmira, NY, Hagerstown, MD, Kalispell, MT and Lexington, KY. We expect to make further new service announcements shortly.
We are pleased to announce we were recently approved by the United States Department of Defense (DoD) to carry domestic military charter traffic. This enables us to access another important source of ad-hoc charter business. With no prior history with this important new customer, we are unable to reasonably predict how much additional charter business we will obtain from this program, but we believe it will result in a meaningful boost to our fixed-fee revenue.
MD-80 Aircraft in Service* September 30, 2008 September 30, 2007 Owned (including capital leases) 35 25 Leased 2 4 Total 37 29 * Does not include six owned MD-80 aircraft leased to a third partyDuring the third quarter, we exercised a previously-negotiated forward-purchase agreement to purchase, for cash, two previously-leased aircraft. Early in the fourth quarter we took delivery of the first of six aircraft we purchased earlier this year which have been on lease to a European carrier. We expect to place this aircraft into service late in the fourth quarter for a total of 38 aircraft in our operating fleet at year end.
We expect to place the remaining five aircraft into service in 2009, three in the first quarter and two in the fourth quarter, subsequent to their return from the lessee.
At this time, Allegiant Travel Company provides the following guidance to investors, which are subject to revision:
-- We expect fourth quarter 2008 year-over-year departures to be flat and we expect a decline in ASMs of approximately 3%. -- We expect first quarter 2009 year-over-year departure growth of approximately 5% and ASM growth of approximately 7%. -- By the end of 2008, Allegiant Air expects to operate 38 MD-80 aircraft. By the end of 2009, Allegiant Air expects to operate at least 43 MD-80 aircraft. -- We expect 4Q08 capital expenditure to be approximately $6 million, including the purchase of two spare engines and improvements to aircraft expected to be introduced to the fleet in the next two quarters. -- We expect 2009 capital expenditure of approximately $15-20 million, for improvements to aircraft owned but not yet operated, purchase of additional spare engines and other miscellaneous capital expenditure. At this time we have no fuel hedges in place.Allegiant Travel Company will host a conference call with analysts at 1 pm East Coast time tomorrow, October 22, 2008, to discuss its third quarter and nine-month 2008 financial results. A live broadcast of the conference call will be available via the Company's Investor Relations website homepage at http://ir.allegiantair.com. The webcast will also be archived in the "Events & Presentations" section of the website.
 
A320 drivr might not be making what he's worth, but your rates are horrible.......Guys flying busted up Dc8's in South America are making more. Allegiant.....real classy outfit.........BUT YOU DID MAKE 3Q COIN.........
 
Good one. You must be one of those A-320 drivers getting paid what he is worth, right?

years 1-6 you are right he should be getting at least 75-100k more than he is currently

80 hrs/Month$9,392$10,085$10,310$10,537$10,771$10,879Per Year$112,700$121,023$123,716$126,449$129,254$130,550Blended Rt$117$126$129$132$135$136B-Fund/401K $11,270$12,102$12,372$12,645$12,925$13,055Yearly Comp$123,970$133,125$136,087$139,094$142,180$143,605 82 hrs/Month$9,723$10,441$10,674$10,909$11,151$11,263Per Year$116,677$125,294$128,082$130,912$133,816$135,157Blended Rt$119$127$130$133$136$137B-Fund/401K $11,668$12,529$12,808$13,091$13,382$13,516Yearly Comp$128,345$137,824$140,890$144,004$147,198$148,673 85 hrs/Month$10,220$10,975$11,219$11,467$11,722$11,839Per Year$122,644$131,702$134,632$137,607$140,659$142,069Blended Rt$120$129$132$135$138$139B-Fund/401K $12,264$13,170$13,463$13,761$14,066$14,207Yearly Comp$134,908$144,872$148,095$151,367$154,725$156,276 90 hrs/Month$11,049$11,865$12,129$12,397$12,672$12,799Per Year$132,588$142,380$145,548$148,764$152,064$153,588Blended Rt$123$132$135$138$141$142B-Fund/401K $13,259$14,238$14,555$14,876$15,206$15,359Yearly Comp$145,847$156,618$160,103$163,640$167,270$168,947 95 hrs/Month$11,878$12,755$13,039$13,327$13,622$13,759Per Year$142,532$153,059$156,464$159,921$163,469$165,107Blended Rt$125$134$137$140$143$145B-Fund/401K $14,253$15,306$15,646$15,992$16,347$16,511Yearly Comp$156,785$168,364$172,111$175,913$179,816$181,618
 
A320 drivr might not be making what he's worth, but your rates are horrible.......Guys flying busted up Dc8's in South America are making more. Allegiant.....real classy outfit.........BUT YOU DID MAKE 3Q COIN.........

Ahhh I get it.....he's a hypocrite! His pay is bad but because mine isn't great we are somehow different? It's a tired argument that's not worth my time. If he wants to do something worthwhile maybe he can teach his ALPA brothers/sisters how to say NO....cause they have been saying YES longer than AAY has been an airline! Enjoy your DC-8 amigo!
 
What is it with these guys always trying to rain on our parade? Our pay is pretty similar to other companies with less than 45 airplanes. Sun Country, Spirit, Midwest, Virgin, and Allegiant all get paid about the same wages, give or take couple bucks. Some make a little more, some a little less. Plus Allegiant has 3 years of contractual pay raises coming up and profit sharing.
It's just a matter of time until our pay is as high or higher than a lot of the haters out there.
 
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What is it with these guys always trying to rain on our parade? Our pay is pretty similar to other companies with less than 45 airplanes. Sun Country, Spirit, Midwest, Virgin, and Allegiant all get paid about the same wages, give or take couple bucks. Some make a little more, some a little less. Plus Allegiant has 3 years of contractual pay raises coming up and profit sharing.
It's just a matter of time until our pay is as high or higher than a lot of the haters out there.

These are the same haters that talk smack about SWA just don't listen to them.
 
There is lots of room for improvement in pay and retirement at Allegiant. I think in some respect we are selling ourselves short. Especially for an airline that is profitable. No excuses.



What is it with these guys always trying to rain on our parade? Our pay is pretty similar to other companies with less than 45 airplanes. Sun Country, Spirit, Midwest, Virgin, and Allegiant all get paid about the same wages, give or take couple bucks. Some make a little more, some a little less. Plus Allegiant has 3 years of contractual pay raises coming up and profit sharing.
It's just a matter of time until our pay is as high or higher than a lot of the haters out there.
 
At your wages and bennies what did you expect?

Your argument is old and tired. Let's go ahead and give the roughly 250 Allegiant pilots an $70/hr raise for the 3rd quarter. This brings them up close to SWA's payscale. The average pilot flew about 80 hours per month. This equates to an added expense of $4.2M for the quarter. This would bring our profit down to only 700K or so. But it would still be a PROFIT. You guys just lost $4M for the quarter at your much higher payscales. If your snide remarks were true, Skybus would still be flourishing. For the last time, pilot salaries do not make or break an airline. You either have good management or you don't!

We are underpaid, no doubt about it. But we're working on it. But don't be so naive as to think that our profitiability is tied only to our pilot payscale.
 
What is it with these guys always trying to rain on our parade? Our pay is pretty similar to other companies with less than 45 airplanes. Sun Country, Spirit, Midwest, Virgin, and Allegiant all get paid about the same wages, give or take couple bucks. Some make a little more, some a little less. Plus Allegiant has 3 years of contractual pay raises coming up and profit sharing.
It's just a matter of time until our pay is as high or higher than a lot of the haters out there.
Parade? That's exactly the point. It's your attitude about accepting work while being grossly underpaid. You accept being a loser at the cost of the profession.
 
When a guy starts a business, he never gets paid until it is profitable. maybe the pros at allegiant know what they're doing and just like LUV, when they get to a certain critical mass, the pay will come just as hiring will, longevity, and a good pension plan.

It looks like they know what they're doing.
 
When a guy starts a business, he never gets paid until it is profitable. maybe the pros at allegiant know what they're doing and just like LUV, when they get to a certain critical mass, the pay will come just as hiring will, longevity, and a good pension plan.

It looks like they know what they're doing.



How dare you compare us to SWA when they were around 10 years? Don't you know that they were always the best paid with the best benefits?
 
Parade? That's exactly the point. It's your attitude about accepting work while being grossly underpaid. You accept being a loser at the cost of the profession.

There is no such thing as bringing down the industry. The airlines pay based on their profitability and success, not what their competitor's pay. Look at any unprofitable company and you'll see that their pay decreases. Simultaneously look at any profitable company and you'll see that their pay increases. This is not rocket science, people. In general, a profitable company will not see a decrease in wages regardless of what's happening with their competitor's wages.
If an airline cannot maintain enough profitability to offset increased wages, they have more internal issues than just high pay.
If Allegiant remains profitable, someday our pay will probably be higher than yours. You might as well accept that.
 
Who is bringing down the industry? Us, whose pay is increasing every year, or you, who is now making 50% of what you made 8 years ago?

I guess I'll answer that question with a question. Why are airlines like UAL, NWA, DAL, etc., making 50% of what we were making 8 years ago? Did the "going rate" for pilot wages change during that time period? If they did, what exerted such downward pressure on pilot wages?
 
If they did, what exerted such downward pressure on pilot wages?

High fuel prices, more competition, corporate greed, Alpa's failure to contain the RJ epedemic, mergers, a dwindling economy, industry wide losses following 9/11...

I don't think "Allegiant Air" is the reason pal... But direct your anger at others.. It's in your nature..
 
And thinking like this is EXACTLY why we are our own worst enemies.

Might want to take a long look in the mirror, considering UAL's narrow-body 10 year Capt pay will be less than AAYs by this time next year. While you're there, you can throw in a couple other 'legacy carriers' (NWA and US Air) whose monolithic representation have negotiated away pay rates and benefits for years. Allegiant didn't do this, ALPA did, so please, enough already with the petty attacks. You want to assign blame, go after the highly compensated representatives you elected to look after your best interest. As I see it, you have every right to be angry: you should expect better performance from a group whose officers average $400k - $450K/yr.

Unlike the rest on the industry, Allegiant pay has consistently been on the way up, and will continue...because there's money on the table (makes sense, huh?). In fact, 11/09 will mark the 5th consecutive year of enhancements in pay (> 40%)and benefits.

You see, most AAY pilots are interested in the long-term profitability of the company. We're tired of the furloughs, lay offs, and costly empty promises. Which ALPA rep responded to killing the golden goose by saying "we don't want to kill it, we just want to choke it til it kicks out the last golden egg"? Wake up and smell the coffee, it's a new industry. Unlike the days of "highest pay til the last day" successful companies' employees will aim to miximize and share the PROFITABILITY. The rest will continue down the path of losses as they fail to let go of outdated and failed strategies (market share/dominance, labor vs. mgt, etc).

Unlike most of the rest of the industry, I believe it's safe to say most AAY pilots are quite pleased with the current status and direction of Allegiant. Oddly enough, as bad as we're currently portrayed, I'm told some of our resumes include members from the ranks of furloughed UAL drivers. We're hiring...

D1
 
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OK, point by point......

High fuel prices caused legacy pilot wages to get dragged down to LCC wages 8 years ago as the original poster stated? Nope, definitely not buying that point. Check out spot prices for that time period. Was there some sort of spike that caused pilot wages to go down during that time period? Let me know if you need a link for the late 90's early 00's.

More competition is DEFINITELY in there. More competition from LCC's using low wages to undercut the competition. That I'll buy.

We're having industry wide losses now but there is no "extra" pressure to cut my wages (yet) to the extent they were cut in the early 00's. So I don't buy that point.

Corporate greed will always exist. It has existed since Orville and Wilbur. It exists now. That didn't cause the decreases we saw in the early 00's.

ALPA's failure to contain the RJ epedimic.......I don't buy that one either. If "ALPA'S failure to contain the RJ epedimic" was a point being used to explain the drastic reduction in legacy narrowbody flying, that's something I'd buy. But an actual drag down of 737 wages, for example, I don't think so. My management, for example, has never come to our negotiators and said that 737 pay rates have to come down X% because regional airline Y is paying their 50 seat guys less. I don't think they would ever come to us with something like that. They just park the 737 and replace it with a RJ. However, my management certainly came to us and said, "Hey UA pilots.....JetBlue is paying their A320 guys X and we're paying you guys X+50%+pension and that puts us in a difficult competitive position."

Industry wide losses since 9/11.....yeah, I would agree. It accelerated what was happening already as far as the damage the LCC's were doing to the legacies.

I'm not going to debate you Skybus, Allegiant, and VX guys about your wages anymore as I've already typed too much. The rationalization of such wages is deeply embedded in your respective cultures and I suspect will never change. We, as an industry, I guess just have to hope that guys like Daytonaflyer are in the miniority at your airline.
 
OK, point by point......

High fuel prices caused legacy pilot wages to get dragged down to LCC wages 8 years ago as the original poster stated? Nope, definitely not buying that point. Check out spot prices for that time period. Was there some sort of spike that caused pilot wages to go down during that time period? Let me know if you need a link for the late 90's early 00's.

More competition is DEFINITELY in there. More competition from LCC's using low wages to undercut the competition. That I'll buy.

We're having industry wide losses now but there is no "extra" pressure to cut my wages (yet) to the extent they were cut in the early 00's. So I don't buy that point.

Corporate greed will always exist. It has existed since Orville and Wilbur. It exists now. That didn't cause the decreases we saw in the early 00's.

ALPA's failure to contain the RJ epedimic.......I don't buy that one either. If "ALPA'S failure to contain the RJ epedimic" was a point being used to explain the drastic reduction in legacy narrowbody flying, that's something I'd buy. But an actual drag down of 737 wages, for example, I don't think so. My management, for example, has never come to our negotiators and said that 737 pay rates have to come down X% because regional airline Y is paying their 50 seat guys less. I don't think they would ever come to us with something like that. They just park the 737 and replace it with a RJ. However, my management certainly came to us and said, "Hey UA pilots.....JetBlue is paying their A320 guys X and we're paying you guys X+50%+pension and that puts us in a difficult competitive position."

Industry wide losses since 9/11.....yeah, I would agree. It accelerated what was happening already as far as the damage the LCC's were doing to the legacies.

I'm not going to debate you Skybus, Allegiant, and VX guys about your wages anymore as I've already typed too much. The rationalization of such wages is deeply embedded in your respective cultures and I suspect will never change. We, as an industry, I guess just have to hope that guys like Daytonaflyer are in the miniority at your airline.

Those pesky LCC pilots...like Southwest, bringing down UALs 737 pay rates. Tsk,tsk. Yeah, let's blame them. Let's face it, SWA has been the scape-goat and laughing stock of the industry from their inception. But who's laughing now? They negotiated WITH the company when there were profits on the table (what a concept).

"I'm not going to debate you Skybus, allegiant, and VX guys about your wages anymore as I've already typed too much." First statement that's made sense so far UAL...couldn't agree more.

Go enjoy your life and lose the misplaced anger. Sincerest best wishes,

D1
 
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I guess I'll answer that question with a question. Why are airlines like UAL, NWA, DAL, etc., making 50% of what we were making 8 years ago? Did the "going rate" for pilot wages change during that time period? If they did, what exerted such downward pressure on pilot wages?

You are asking us?? Perhaps you should direct that question to your unprofitable management team whose outdated and failed practices/philosophies managed to squader away any chance of profitability. Better yet, ask your highly paid representatives at ALPA who quickly caved to management pressure while living high on the hog.

Better yet, here's a guess: perhaps the downward pressure came from those pesky LCCs competing head-to-head with UAL, DAL, and NWA's wide-body international flights? Southwest and Jetblue 747s...
 
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Might want to take a long look in the mirror, considering UAL's narrow-body 10 year Capt pay will be less than AAYs by this time next year. While you're there, you can throw in a couple other 'legacy carriers' (NWA and US Air) whose monolithic representation have negotiated away pay rates and benefits for years.

You're not comparing your newly negotiated pilot contract to a years old contract of a bankrupt carrier that is about to have openers exchanged this spring, are you? And that's a source of Allegiant pilot pride when you couldn't even match those rates back when you got your latest contract?

And did you take our 15% B&C fund, adjust it for its tax deferred status, and add that to UA's hourly rates and then make the apples to apples comparison? And how about 1st and 2nd Captain pay rates? You failed to mention those? Do you honestly believe that ANY narrowbody Captain should earn wages that low under ANY circumstance? Even if the airline is "just starting out?" Even if you're "home every night?" Even if you have a "great relationship with management?"

Why do you think their "monolithic representation" were in the position they were in to negotiate away pay rates? How would you describe your representation if you describe mine as "monolithic?" Your "representation" if you call it that, can't even match UA rates and yet you criticize ALPA? That's rich. What is your "representation" doing about important issues like cabotage? Changes in the RLA? Future changes in FAR's like pilot rest rules? Just sit on the sidelines Desert and throw stones. We'll do the heavy lifting for you as obviously you and your pilot group are incapable or worse, unwilling, to do your own.

You see, here's the key difference between my arguments and the arguments of pilots at airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, and Virgin America and guys like you. You guys think it is OK to massively undercut the prevailing wage for the sake of "growth." Someday, you argue, you'll be able to earn a wage that resembles the going rate. But, until then, since you aren't taking pay cuts like the rest of the industry, it's OK because you're growing and making money unlike those ALPA carriers.

Guys like me saw, first hand, the damage low pilot wages can do to the industry. We saw that it starts with a low paying LCC here, another small LCC undercutting there, and the next thing you know, management teams are complaining that in order to compete, they need their employees to earn compensation packages that are similar to the "new" competition.

So Desert, I've heard all of your arguments before, and I'm just as concerned now as I was back then when Valujet and JetBlue pilots were telling me the same thing you're telling now. I guess the best we (as an industry) can hope for is that I end up being wrong.
 
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You're not comparing your newly negotiated pilot contract to a years old contract of a bankrupt carrier that is about to have openers exchanged this spring, are you? And that's a source of Allegiant pilot pride when you couldn't even match those rates back when you got your latest contract?

And did you take our 15% B&C fund, adjust it for its tax deferred status, and add that to UA's hourly rates and then make the apples to apples comparison? And how about 1st and 2nd Captain pay rates? You failed to mention those? Do you honestly believe that ANY narrowbody Captain should earn wages that low under ANY circumstance? Even if the airline is "just starting out?" Even if you're "home every night?" Even if you have a "great relationship with management?"

Why do you think their "monolithic representation" were in the position they were in to negotiate away pay rates?

You see, here's the key difference between my arguments and the arguments of pilots at airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, and Virgin America and guys like you. You guys think it is OK to massively undercut the prevailing wage for the sake of "growth." Someday, you argue, you'll be able to earn a wage that resembles the going rate. But, until then, since you aren't taking pay cuts like the rest of the industry, it's OK because you're growing and making money unlike those ALPA carriers.

Guys like me saw, first hand, the damage low pilot wages can do to the industry. We saw that it starts with a low paying LCC here, another small LCC undercutting there, and the next thing you know, management teams are complaining that in order to compete, they need their employees to earn compensation packages that are similar to the "new" competition.

So Desert, I've heard all of your arguments before, and I'm just as concerned now as I was when Valujet and JetBlue pilots were telling me the same thing you're telling me back then. I guess the best we (as an industry) can hope for is that I end up being wrong.

All you and your ALPA brothers and sisters had to do is say NO! Why is that an issue you refuse to address? I do not believe any Allegiant pilot has a vote on your ballot! Voting YES and blaming everyone else for your problems is why YOU have problems!
 
All you and your ALPA brothers and sisters had to do is say NO! Why is that an issue you refuse to address? I do not believe any Allegiant pilot has a vote on your ballot! Voting YES and blaming everyone else for your problems is why YOU have problems!

Let's address that point "I refuse to address."

Ameriagle, putting our differences aside, certainly you understand that there is no good reason why a MD-88 Captain at a growing, profitable airline should make 80 bucks an hour with no retirement. Certainly you can agree with that?

Certainly you can believe that the Allegiant pilot group has FAR SUPERIOR representation than ALPA. You guys tell me that all the time. Can we agree on those two points?

We'll get back the above two points in a minute....

So you asked me why didn't just ALPA say "no?" I've discussed my opinion on that subject at length, but the bottom line was that, in my opinion, it wouldn't have mattered. The legacy carriers at that time couldn't compete with LCC's with employees working at wages far below the prevailing wages at the time. It just wasn't going to happen. Labor, back then, were an airline's highest cost, airlines in general were marginally profitable, and from a competitive standpoint having labor costs that were 100%+ higher was a death sentence. The legacy carriers' labor groups (all of them) had a choice. Either adapt to the low cost environment or perish. To blame "bad management," or "ALPA," in my opinion, is off point. There's not much either can do faced with huge labor cost disadvantages in an airline environment. Even today.

The problem continues in that even if one legacy airline "fell on its sword" to keep wages up, the spiral would have continued. LCC's would have grown into the void left by the failed carrier, gotten stronger, then the next legacy domino would feel even more pressure to compete against these growing, now stronger LCC's. An ALPA or APA or whoever "sacrificial lamb" would have done little to stop the cancer.

But let's say you don't buy my arguments above as to why it wouldn't have made sense for us to "just say no" as you state. Maybe I can illustrate the point in a way that you can understand.

Reread my first several sentences. Maybe some pilots "didn't say no" for the same reasons the Allegiant pilots didn't just say no to your latest contract? Despite superior representation (in your group's opinion I'm sure), a growing airlne, a profitable airline, you still have no retirement and low wages. Why didn't YOU say no? Why didn't the Allegiant pilot group's superior representation deliver an industry standard contact? Why didn't the Allegiant pilot group collectively say "NO" to ANY part of its contract that was substandard to any ALPA contracts? Contracts that were negotiated by clueless, bloated, overpaid ALPA leaders? Certainly the Allegiant pilot group could have chose to lead by example and show us all how it's done.......but they chose not to. Why?
 
UAL...and we thought u were done typing(??)

I tell u what, unlike you, I'm actually done. I've tried to respond to your 'logic' and have been dumped off the site...twice. Maybe it'll dump me out again, who knows...

What a collosal waste of time and energy it is trying to reason or convince the likes of you to stop blaming others for your own destiny. Have a nice life.

I'm now going to take my own advice and go out and enjoy my life. It's no wonder i seldom read or post on this site anymore. Pure drivel, mis-information, whining, and blaming.

You're right. It's all our fault, we're miserable scum and we're pulling down your beloved profession. We should all quit.

Happy now?

Seriously man, peace.

D1
 
You see, here's the key difference between my arguments and the arguments of pilots at airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, and Virgin America and guys like you. You guys think it is OK to massively undercut the prevailing wage for the sake of "growth." Someday, you argue, you'll be able to earn a wage that resembles the going rate. But, until then, since you aren't taking pay cuts like the rest of the industry, it's OK because you're growing and making money unlike those ALPA carriers.

While I'm sure UAL started with the best pay, benefits, etc. and didn't have to work at it for several years/contracts, shouldn't you be more concerned with the LCCs that actually overlap your routes? I haven't seen a UAL tail in PIE or SFB.
 

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