Allegiant - Generally

[Daytonaflyer]

Pay is shameful. I don't think there is a lower paying MD88/90 operation out there. I guess as long as they can get people to work for it......

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)

Allegiant Air (upgrade currently at 1 year)
FO year
1. $39,360
Captain years
2. $81,600
3. $86,400
4. $92,160
5. $96,960
6. $100,800
7. $102,720
8. $104,640
9. $106,560
10. $108,480

Ten Year Total=$919,680
--------------------------------------------
United Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $30,720
2. $48,000
3. $70,080
4. $74,880
5. $76,800
6. $78,720
7. $80,640
8. $82,560
9. $83,520
Captain years
10. $124,800

Ten Year Total=$750,720
----------------------------------------------
Northwest Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $28,800
2. $54,720
3. $66,240
4. $68,160
5. $70,080
6. $71,040
7. $72,960
8. $74,880
9. $76,800
Captain years
10. $117,120

Ten Year Total=$700,800
------------------------------------------------
Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------
NetJets (new TA, 7on/7off schedule, estimated upgrade at 5 years)

FO years
1. $56,875
2. $58,866
3. $63,738
4. $65,969
Captain years
5. $100,408
6. $103,923
7. $107,560
8. $111,324
9. $115,221
10. $119,254

Ten Year Total=$903,138

At Allegiant, the hourly pay is rising, the pilot group seems happy, and don't forget the most important part...you will be home almost every single night.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)

Allegiant Air (upgrade currently at 1 year)
FO year
1. $39,360
Captain years
2. $81,600
3. $86,400
4. $92,160
5. $96,960
6. $100,800
7. $102,720
8. $104,640
9. $106,560
10. $108,480

Ten Year Total=$919,680
--------------------------------------------
United Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $30,720
2. $48,000
3. $70,080
4. $74,880
5. $76,800
6. $78,720
7. $80,640
8. $82,560
9. $83,520
Captain years
10. $124,800

Ten Year Total=$750,720
----------------------------------------------
Northwest Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $28,800
2. $54,720
3. $66,240
4. $68,160
5. $70,080
6. $71,040
7. $72,960
8. $74,880
9. $76,800
Captain years
10. $117,120

Ten Year Total=$700,800
------------------------------------------------
Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------
NetJets (new TA, 7on/7off schedule, estimated upgrade at 5 years)

FO years
1. $56,875
2. $58,866
3. $63,738
4. $65,969
Captain years
5. $100,408
6. $103,923
7. $107,560
8. $111,324
9. $115,221
10. $119,254

Ten Year Total=$903,138

At Allegiant, the hourly pay is rising, the pilot group seems happy, and don't forget the most important part...you will be home almost every single night.

While your numbers might be accurate, but have you consider retirement? Not that pyhtom pension, of course, but B and C funds (money in your own pocket funds). Most est. airlines pay about 15% (or more like 19% if you consider the tax bennefit), while your airlines pay about 3%ish 401k match. Thats another 100k over ten years per your figures.

Yes, hotel bar tabs cost alot, not to mention its evil twin: late-night hookers, urr, I mean pizza delivery, but thats what per-diem is for. Some airlines pay Occunus rate, thats about $3.00/hr, whats yours?

I always believe that risk should equal rewards. Most start up airlines ends within 3yrs. Thats a big risk. shouldn't you be rewarded more for the risk you take? All things considered, it seems like that if one consider the ENTIRE package, you will be rewarded just about the same as a traditional "safer" bet.

But then again, who knows which will be the next Southwest.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Retirement is important, but personally, I'd rather earn more money while I'm young and can really enjoy it. The major airlines may pay more in the long run, but who knows what's gonna happen that far out? Odds are much will change before then.

Allegiant isn't really a startup. It's been around almost 11 years...since 1997. It reinvented itself about 6 years ago with a new CEO, and a totally new business plan and that's why most people think it's a startup airline.

The per diem at Allegiant is low, only $1.00/hour. That's because we don't do overnights. Per diem is given so pilots can buy food and supplies when they are in another city. We fly out and backs, so we rarely need to buy food away from base.

Don't get me wrong, it would be great if hourly pay was higher, and it is rising, but that's not all that matters. It's nice working for a place with happy pilots, friendly managers, airplanes that are maintained in base every night, and that has made a profit for the last 19 quarters in a row.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

really? Profitable 19qts in a row!

Fold up my tent, warm the bus up, and get me an application!

 

[chperplt]

The minimum days off was mentioned earlier. How many days off do most line holders see? How often are bases opened and closed, ie. is there a history of this? Where is training done? Thanks in advance.

Minimum days off is 10 for reserves and 11 for regular line holders. The average lines holders see varies by base, but I would guess 14 or 15. We have quite a few lines with 17-18 days off and high block values.

We opened PIE 14 or so months ago and FLL/IWA earlier this year. I don't believe we've closed a base in 3+ years, and that was a charter base that closed when the contract went away.

 

[BRA]

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)

Allegiant Air (upgrade currently at 1 year)
FO year
1. $39,360
Captain years
2. $81,600
3. $86,400
4. $92,160
5. $96,960
6. $100,800
7. $102,720
8. $104,640
9. $106,560
10. $108,480

Ten Year Total=$919,680
--------------------------------------------
United Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $30,720
2. $48,000
3. $70,080
4. $74,880
5. $76,800
6. $78,720
7. $80,640
8. $82,560
9. $83,520
Captain years
10. $124,800

Ten Year Total=$750,720
----------------------------------------------
Northwest Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $28,800
2. $54,720
3. $66,240
4. $68,160
5. $70,080
6. $71,040
7. $72,960
8. $74,880
9. $76,800
Captain years
10. $117,120

Ten Year Total=$700,800
------------------------------------------------
Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------
NetJets (new TA, 7on/7off schedule, estimated upgrade at 5 years)

FO years
1. $56,875
2. $58,866
3. $63,738
4. $65,969
Captain years
5. $100,408
6. $103,923
7. $107,560
8. $111,324
9. $115,221
10. $119,254

Ten Year Total=$903,138

At Allegiant, the hourly pay is rising, the pilot group seems happy, and don't forget the most important part...you will be home almost every single night.

Also consider that the second 10 years, and 10 years after that the pay difference is far more different. We have no wide bodies or anything like. Of course, in 10 years may be we will have them? Or may be they won't have any more jet fuel left. You never know.

 

[On Your Six]

Don't forget to look at the cost side. Netjets pays for the full health care package for pilots and their families - that equates to a couple of thousand dollars per year in some cases. Per diem and nice TIPS also cushion the revenue side at Netjets.

Your point about Captain pay at Allegiant is well taken - it's a good deal because you can upgrade much faster.

 

[learflyer]

I don't know if TIPS is an acronym for something at nja or not, but tips (monetary) are few and far between, and cannot be relied upon.

 

[bravodude]

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)

Allegiant Air (upgrade currently at 1 year)
FO year
1. $39,360
Captain years
2. $81,600
3. $86,400
4. $92,160
5. $96,960
6. $100,800
7. $102,720
8. $104,640
9. $106,560
10. $108,480

Ten Year Total=$919,680
--------------------------------------------
United Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $30,720
2. $48,000
3. $70,080
4. $74,880
5. $76,800
6. $78,720
7. $80,640
8. $82,560
9. $83,520
Captain years
10. $124,800

Ten Year Total=$750,720
----------------------------------------------
Northwest Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $28,800
2. $54,720
3. $66,240
4. $68,160
5. $70,080
6. $71,040
7. $72,960
8. $74,880
9. $76,800
Captain years
10. $117,120

Ten Year Total=$700,800
------------------------------------------------
Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------
NetJets (new TA, 7on/7off schedule, estimated upgrade at 5 years)

FO years
1. $56,875
2. $58,866
3. $63,738
4. $65,969
Captain years
5. $100,408
6. $103,923
7. $107,560
8. $111,324
9. $115,221
10. $119,254

Ten Year Total=$903,138

At Allegiant, the hourly pay is rising, the pilot group seems happy, and don't forget the most important part...you will be home almost every single night.

How about we add FDX, UPS LUV and even CAL with a 2 yr upgrade, then we can compare!

 

[chperplt]

How about we add FDX, UPS LUV and even CAL with a 2 yr upgrade, then we can compare!

You can, but those numbers wouldn't be real numbers would they?

How long is the quickest upgrade at those places now that 65 has passed?

 

[Deadalus]

Minimum days off is 10 for reserves and 11 for regular line holders. The average lines holders see varies by base, but I would guess 14 or 15. We have quite a few lines with 17-18 days off and high block values.

We opened PIE 14 or so months ago and FLL/IWA earlier this year. I don't believe we've closed a base in 3+ years, and that was a charter base that closed when the contract went away.

Thanks for the info. I live north of Seattle and heard about the BLI base. 7000 hrs total, 2500 hrs 121 PIC and 1100 hrs 737. I'm Ex America West, now US Airways. This could be a great airline, but I'm afraid the East is intent on trying to screw things up. Unfortunately they have a great track record.

 

[andyd]

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)


Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------

Not entirely accurate and does't include everything. I am a 2007 new hire and will hold a line on the 73ng by early summer, when i go on second year pay it will be 76K, the total compensation package will push 2nd yr pay to neary 88K. Also it's CURRENTLY an "8 year upgrade", only due to the most junior ca in NYC M88 in the latest bid. I am only 900 numbers away from him. With our announced and arriving 777's already on the way over the next 2 years, those 900 numbers will go fast. It is entirely concievable that I could upgrade on the m88 in nyc inside of 3 years (if i were willing to trade qol for upgrade and rsv in lga which i'm not). Of couse this is ALL dependant on no mergers or anything silly in the economy. Word here is that there are significant numbers of 777's on the way which = MORE new hires. My 25 year career earning projection based on today's contract and dollars is a cool 5.2 million. Not too shabby.

Bottom line is go where you are going to be happy. It's ALL about qol and how you spend it. The richest people I know earn minimum wage.

Best of luck to you and I hope you escape from 9E ASAP, I know what you are putting up with...in another lifetime I was there....but you know that.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

It all depends on what happens during your individual career. You could easily say that receiving tips and free health care equals more money, but you could also say that not having to pay union dues or eating at restaurants every night could equally save you money. Nothing is for certain, it's all relative to your experience.

Of course there will probably always be companies where you can earn more (UPS, FedEX, SWA, etc).
But you can't really expect a small company with only 34 airplanes to pay more than the big guys who have hundreds of airplanes. The point is only that Allegiant has potential to be a good place to work.

 

[chperplt]

Bottom line is go where you are going to be happy. It's ALL about qol and how you spend it. The richest people I know earn minimum wage.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chperplt]

Thanks for the info. I live north of Seattle and heard about the BLI base. 7000 hrs total, 2500 hrs 121 PIC and 1100 hrs 737. I'm Ex America West, now US Airways. This could be a great airline, but I'm afraid the East is intent on trying to screw things up. Unfortunately they have a great track record.

The BLI base will be a small base with 2 airplanes to start. If it takes off like everyone thinks it will, I expect it to expand pretty quickly.

The Canadians love our BLI flights... I don't have actual numbers, but every BLI flight I do is at or very near capacity.

If you have any specific company questions, feel free to PM me.

Chp

 

[Desert1]

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)

Allegiant Air (upgrade currently at 1 year)
FO year
1. $39,360
Captain years
2. $81,600
3. $86,400
4. $92,160
5. $96,960
6. $100,800
7. $102,720
8. $104,640
9. $106,560
10. $108,480

Ten Year Total=$919,680
--------------------------------------------
United Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $30,720
2. $48,000
3. $70,080
4. $74,880
5. $76,800
6. $78,720
7. $80,640
8. $82,560
9. $83,520
Captain years
10. $124,800

Ten Year Total=$750,720
----------------------------------------------
Northwest Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $28,800
2. $54,720
3. $66,240
4. $68,160
5. $70,080
6. $71,040
7. $72,960
8. $74,880
9. $76,800
Captain years
10. $117,120

Ten Year Total=$700,800
------------------------------------------------
Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------
NetJets (new TA, 7on/7off schedule, estimated upgrade at 5 years)

FO years
1. $56,875
2. $58,866
3. $63,738
4. $65,969
Captain years
5. $100,408
6. $103,923
7. $107,560
8. $111,324
9. $115,221
10. $119,254

Ten Year Total=$903,138

At Allegiant, the hourly pay is rising, the pilot group seems happy, and don't forget the most important part...you will be home almost every single night.

Good post. Also keep in mind this comparison table doesn't include the 130% for all hours flown over 81 or the annual bonus (this year is estimated to be $6 per hour flown in 2007 for captains and $4/hr for fo's). Another consideration: This table uses the present pay rates which will also change significantly over the next 22 months in accordance with the increases which were negotiated this year by our in-house representatives.

Another item to consider: you can fly a huge amount IF you choose. Another beauty of living in base is you can fly a lot more and still be home every night. As previously mentioned, QOL and happiness at Allegiant hinges, to a large extent, on whether or not you commute.

Many of our captains flew right up to 1000 hours this year. Most were pay-protected for well over that. Most airlines average somewhat less. Yes, it can be a lot of work, but it's not unusual to see $110-$120K for a 3-4 yr captain.

Shameful?...

D1

 

[ualdriver]

Time to look at the bigger picture.
I'll compare Allegiant, United, NWA, Delta, and NetJets over a 10 year period.
-Based on 80 hours/month
-Using the most junior airplane
(83.3 hours/month=1000 hours/year)

Allegiant Air (upgrade currently at 1 year)
FO year
1. $39,360
Captain years
2. $81,600
3. $86,400
4. $92,160
5. $96,960
6. $100,800
7. $102,720
8. $104,640
9. $106,560
10. $108,480

Ten Year Total=$919,680
--------------------------------------------
United Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $30,720
2. $48,000
3. $70,080
4. $74,880
5. $76,800
6. $78,720
7. $80,640
8. $82,560
9. $83,520
Captain years
10. $124,800

Ten Year Total=$750,720
----------------------------------------------
Northwest Airlines (upgrade currently 10 years)
FO years
1. $28,800
2. $54,720
3. $66,240
4. $68,160
5. $70,080
6. $71,040
7. $72,960
8. $74,880
9. $76,800
Captain years
10. $117,120

Ten Year Total=$700,800
------------------------------------------------
Delta Airlines (upgrade currently 8 years)
FO years
1. $47,040
2. $65,280
3. $75,840
4. $77,760
5. $80,640
6. $82,560
7. $84,480
Captain years
8. $128,640
9. $129,600
10. $131,520

Ten Year Total=$903,360
---------------------------------------------
NetJets (new TA, 7on/7off schedule, estimated upgrade at 5 years)

FO years
1. $56,875
2. $58,866
3. $63,738
4. $65,969
Captain years
5. $100,408
6. $103,923
7. $107,560
8. $111,324
9. $115,221
10. $119,254

Ten Year Total=$903,138

At Allegiant, the hourly pay is rising, the pilot group seems happy, and don't forget the most important part...you will be home almost every single night.

Very flawed comparison. Using UAL as an example, you're making some assumptions that skew your argument in Allegiant's favor.

1) You're assuming Allegiant will have 1 year upgrades over the 10 year period you are evaluating. High unlikely- just look at JetBlue. Having to sit longer as a F/O at Allegiant longer will put a significant dent in that 10 year earnings assumption.

2) UAL has a 16% B&C fund. For a guy in the 25% tax bracket, that adds over 20% to a UAL pilot's yearly pre-tax earnings, assuming you are using pre-tax numbers in those columns- and I think you are. Unless you plan on never retiring, you can't ignore a 16%(!) B&C tax deferred contribution to one's retirment plan.

3) UAL (and the other legacies) will likely see their upgrades increase another 2 to 4 years due to Age 65, but during that time, the First Officer will be able to upgrade to widebody equipment, which will significantly add to their 10 year earnings not only due to the hourly wage increase, but also due to the additional 20% B&C they'll earn on that pay increase.

4) Many legacies have contracts coming up over the next couple of years, and will likely see their wages increase at the completion of negotiations. Unless Allegiant pilots plan on organizing, IMO I would expect Allegiant pilot wages to continue to lag unionized pilot wages flying similarly sized equipment as they are now.

 

[chperplt]

Very flawed comparison. Using UAL as an example, you're making some assumptions that skew your argument in Allegiant's favor.

1) You're assuming Allegiant will have 1 year upgrades over the 10 year period you are evaluating. High unlikely- just look at JetBlue. Having to sit longer as a F/O at Allegiant longer will put a significant dent in that 10 year earnings assumption.

2) UAL has a 16% B&C fund. For a guy in the 25% tax bracket, that adds over 20% to a UAL pilot's yearly pre-tax earnings, assuming you are using pre-tax numbers in those columns- and I think you are. Unless you plan on never retiring, you can't ignore a 16%(!) B&C tax deferred contribution to one's retirment plan.

3) UAL (and the other legacies) will likely see their upgrades increase another 2 to 4 years due to Age 65, but during that time, the First Officer will be able to upgrade to widebody equipment, which will significantly add to their 10 year earnings not only due to the hourly wage increase, but also due to the additional 20% B&C they'll earn on that pay increase.

4) Many legacies have contracts coming up over the next couple of years, and will likely see their wages increase at the completion of negotiations. Unless Allegiant pilots plan on organizing, IMO I would expect Allegiant pilot wages to continue to lag unionized pilot wages flying similarly sized equipment as they are now.

1) I don't think he's assuming we're going to maintain a 1 year upgrade for 10 years. I think he's saying that if you were hired today, this is what the next 10 years would likely look like.

2) Very true... Our retirment is all but non existent right now. We realize that and expect it to change over time. UAL didn't have its current or pre 9/11 retirement when you were a young company like we are.

3) Maybe....

4) I wouldn't be so sure about that. UAL and DAL continue to show poor performance with elevated fuel prices. Fuel won't be coming down anytime soon, so what else will give?

I'm sure UAL/DAL/AA/USA are all great airlines to work for, but so is AAY. You may make an extra whatever over your term of employment, but I'm going to be enjoying my life in my own bed just about every night of the week.

As D1 said, there's plenty of money to be made here. As a 3rd year Captain, I broke 6 figures this year and I didn't spend more than 20 +/- nights in a hotel doing it.

In short order we're going to be doing very well for ourselves. It's a lot easier getting yearly raises and enhancements when you're continually profitable.

Good luck to all!

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Actually, the comparison wasn't skewed in anybody's favor. I simply crunched the numbers for the current market conditions.
You're the one trying to skew the results in United's favor.

My comparison was how much each pilot might make in salary given the current expected upgrade times, if all things were equal at each company. Of course there will be other factors, everybody knows that.

Personally, I'd rather be home with my friends and family than have a big retirement fund any day.

 

[learflyer]

Actually, the comparison wasn't skewed in anybody's favor. I simply crunched the numbers for the current market conditions.
You're the one trying to skew the results in United's favor.

My comparison was how much each pilot might make in salary given the current expected upgrade times, if all things were equal at each company. Of course there will be other factors, everybody knows that.

Personally, I'd rather be home with my friends and family than have a big retirement fund any day.

besides, once you start getting in the high tax brackets.........